10:33:42 <andreasromer> Will you HODL Monero or dump it for Tari when it comes out?
11:00:16 <fluffypony> dgoddard__: I think they promote you to high priest once you hit cult number 4
11:01:21 <Inge-> I have a little pony altar at home where I ritually burn some xmr every night
11:02:02 <fluffypony> this is the way
14:56:05 <dgoddard__> I'm definitely HIGH priest in thje LEary sense
14:56:13 <dgoddard__> *Leary
15:26:34 <sgp_> I'm a little concerned about the proposal here, more than I would have been even a month ago https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/kh4vd7/mastering_monero_spanish_translation/
15:26:34 <monerobux> [REDDIT] Mastering Monero Spanish Translation (self.Monero) | 19 points (100.0%) | 0 comments | Posted by lh1008 | Created at 2020-12-20 - 23:24:32
15:29:01 <sgp_> I'm not especially worried about the rates, but is there a reason there is a (1) hourly rate, (2) translation rate/word, and (3) review rate? Shouldn't 2 and 3 be under 1?
15:29:48 <sgp_> I'm more worried that the CCS proposer owner is actively encouraging attacks against the network
15:34:37 <sethsimmons> As long as it's reviewed by someone else who is not associated with him (in theory) I don't really care as long as the translation is good.
15:34:50 <sethsimmons> But I would be hesitant paying out before the finished product for sure.
15:38:24 <thunderosa__> Exactly how is lh actively encouraging attacks against the network?
15:42:18 <sethsimmons> He's been encouraging FUK and the Ryo community in their efforts and saying that their attacks are good and necessary, while also trying to pull more people into their TG channel to be preyed on by FUK.
15:42:36 <sethsimmons> There's also some quotes/screenshots floating around that I don't have a copy of with the specific messages etc.
15:43:58 <sgp_> thunderosa__: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/X5WjGQ2G/Screenshot_20201211-193641_Telegram.jpg
15:45:43 <thunderosa__> Soooo,...Breaking Monero?
15:47:04 <sethsimmons> lol a YT series on what issues Monero has and mitigations is vastly different from someone actively organizing and encouraging attacks on the live Monero network, instead of using HackerOne/testnet to do actual testing and proposing solutions.
15:47:44 <sethsimmons> And the person pushing people like lh1008 to organize these attacks is clearly malicious and is not doing this from some good motive.
15:48:26 <sethsimmons>  * A YT series on what issues Monero has and mitigations is vastly different from someone actively organizing and encouraging attacks on the live Monero network, instead of using HackerOne/testnet to do actual testing and proposing solutions.
15:49:44 <thunderosa__> He's clearly sharing an idea, not organizing an attack.
15:51:11 <sethsimmons> "encouraging organizing attacks on the live Monero network" better?
15:51:47 <thunderosa__> No, still lopsided.
15:51:55 <sethsimmons> Ok, word it how you will.
15:52:14 <sethsimmons> Still, Idc if he has some bad ideas of how to help Monero as long as the translation is good and verified by other, unaffiliated, sources.
15:52:21 <sethsimmons> And if other's want to fund him.
15:52:28 <sethsimmons>  * And if others want to fund him.
15:52:58 <sgp_> do we know why the funding is broken into 3 (4?) rates instead of 1?
15:53:29 <sethsimmons> Is that normal for translation proposals or unique to this one?
15:54:13 <sgp_> Normally they just charge by the word I think, not by the word AND by hour
15:55:54 <sethsimmons> Also -- are the same people writing it reviewing it? That seems.. less than ideal.
15:56:17 <sethsimmons>  * Also -- are the same people that are writing it, reviewing it? That seems.. less than ideal.
16:06:00 <dEBRUYNE> sgp_: You missed a zero in your tweet
16:06:04 <dEBRUYNE> 55000 and 65000
16:06:08 <dEBRUYNE> needs to be 550k / 650k
16:07:58 <sgp_> Lol, ty. Reposted
16:08:48 <dEBRUYNE> np
16:08:52 <dEBRUYNE> Can you post it on Reddit too?
16:10:38 <sgp_> Sure
16:11:31 <dEBRUYNE> ty
16:13:11 <sgp_> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/khkdgq/monero_is_on_track_to_have_its_highest_number_of/
16:13:12 <monerobux> [REDDIT] Monero is on track to have its highest number of monthly transactions yet (https://twitter.com/JEhrenhofer/status/1341052926828171266) to r/Monero | 1 points (100.0%) | 0 comments | Posted by SamsungGalaxyPlayer | Created at 2020-12-21 - 16:12:56
21:04:47 <lh1008[m]> <sgp_ "do we know why the funding is br"> It's 2 rates, an hourly rate and a word rate, and well we make ourselves a bonus for achieved work. I'm following a different model to work. Inside the Monero Outreach we have been working a compensation model for passionate volunteers, and this doesn't cover deadline (time) work. So I personally separated words from the time to execute work. If we want to complete work in
21:04:47 <lh1008[m]> a scope/range/period of time we have to pay that time.
21:05:29 <lh1008[m]> <sethsimmons "Is that normal for translation p"> This is my second proposal with that type of payment requirements.
21:06:13 <sgp_> lh1008[m]: if you want it within a time, why not just charge for per hour then instead of the per word?
21:06:35 <sgp_> having it as three separate lines seems unusual to me
21:06:55 <sgp_> at the moment it's cost per hour, then cost per word, then cost per word review
21:07:13 <lh1008[m]> <sethsimmons "Also -- are the same people writ"> In Monero Outreach we are building teams, so we are basically the Spanish team. We also have French and Portuguese teams.
21:09:24 <lh1008[m]> <sgp_ "at the moment it's cost per hour"> Yes, this because I could be doing something else. Someone ones asked me where was I located, geographically, to pay me my hourly work, so separating execution from hourly work makes sense. If because I'm from Colombia I'm going to be paid 0.09 XMR and because I'm from the USA 0.2 XMR, well it does make sense separating hours and execution.
21:10:43 <sgp_> fwiw I don't think asking someone where they live to adjust rates is appropriate. You definitely don't need to answer that question as it relates to rates
21:11:31 <sgp_> point is, I'd rather see this asked as 1 number than 3 I think?
21:11:37 <lh1008[m]> If we would like to find a standar hourly payment inside Monero is good if we start separating things. Someone could just say, "Hey, I'm a translator from Wonderland, pay me 2 XMR per hour", someone else will say, "Hey, I'm a translator from Mooner, pay me 1 XMR per hour". So making standards is better in a world of differences.
21:12:21 <lh1008[m]> <sgp_ "fwiw I don't think asking someon"> Well, I have been asked, and I don't feel bad about it, I understand why I was asked that.
21:12:36 <sgp_> at the end of the day it's just about the value you provide for the cost though, regardless of where you or anyone else lives
21:15:12 <sgp_> the "real" cost you're charging is ~$19.15/hr or ~$0.0095/word, all-in
21:15:40 <lh1008[m]> <sgp_ "point is, I'd rather see this as"> Summing the 3 numbers gives a rate, and it's between global market rates. I was surprised those numbers didn't go further from the true global USD measured rates, they were even lower.
21:16:27 <sgp_> I know, I just think having it as 3 rates (4 including the bonus) is unusual
21:16:36 <lh1008[m]> <sgp_ "at the end of the day it's just "> Well, language is extremely delicate, so I would say the value has to be high.
21:17:44 <lh1008[m]> <sgp_ "I know, I just think having it a"> Yes I know it's unusual. In MO we had to think over this several times before even working out the compensation model, we have an extremely tight budget.
21:19:55 <sgp_> I'm not 100% sure the book translation makes sense when it was released 2 years ago and a bunch of info is outdated sadly
21:20:24 <sgp_> same for this one https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/185
21:26:34 <lh1008[m]> <sgp_ "I'm not 100% sure the book trans"> Well, I have received comments for the translation and some community members sure seem interested. I would talk for them, maybe what you say is true but not sure if Mastering Monero will have second edition either. If it will, it will worth translating the first edition too.
21:27:15 <lh1008[m]> <lh1008[m] "Well, I have received comments f"> If it will, it **is** worth translating the first edition too.
21:40:48 <dgoddard__> Do we have a timeline of any kind on a potential second edition? That potentially impacts all the translations.
21:41:42 <sgp_> dgoddard__: no ETA, so it should be judged on whether the translation of partially-outdated materials is useful or not
21:59:10 <dgoddard__> IMO with no 2nd ed on the horizon, having the first Ed translated makes sense. It does give a baseline for 2nd Ed for at least the (admittedly decreasing volume of) stuff that doesn't change
21:59:59 <midipoet> I agree with sgp_ that where one lives should make no difference to what the community should expect/hope to donate to someone. It's time the community is giving for, measured through human effort. that should be valued equally, or according to skillset/difficulty of the job, imo.
22:03:58 <dgoddard__> +1 midipoet. Cost to Get The Job Done, At this Quality, By This Date. No other relevant factors.
22:15:26 <thunderosa__> @midipoet - You're right in that it shouldn't matter, but it is a little more complicated in production. We've talked about how to decouple from the dollar in setting contributor rates,...pegging to wheat or something might be more universally human but it's been tricky. I like this new approach to translation in general though. Justin is correct that this is a novel method,...but it's also forgoing many
22:15:26 <thunderosa__> of the fees that translation agencies charge.
22:15:26 <thunderosa__> I think my one critique on is that maybe the time-rate and the word-rate could be better balanced. Incentivizing the timeframe is a neat innovation and I think it will help with some of the translation problems generally. I'm not sure if it actually makes a difference or just seems to make a difference though...it would need to be tried.
22:15:26 <thunderosa__> I've been hearing about and looking forward to a 2nd edition of Mastering Monero for a while, but if there's no ETA yet then Spanish speakers could be waiting around for a long time by the time it's out and then translated.
22:31:21 <sgp_> yeah I didn't mean to suggest waiting around is a good idea. Only pointing out that the work being described here is to translate partially-outdated content
22:34:57 <thunderosa__> It's a fair point and the curse of crypto.
22:35:30 <lh1008[m]> <thunderosa__ "I think my one critique on is th"> How could we balance time-rate and word-rate? Not only for the proposal but in general. I have been thinking about this too.
22:42:27 <thunderosa__> Well, first thought was to split the total....starting in the middle since this is a new method kinda made sense. Half of it gets paid by time, half by word count so both timeliness and productivity are equally incentivized.
22:42:27 <thunderosa__> I know there's more to this behind-the-scenes, I don't know that it's the right mix, but that's where I'd start.
22:43:32 <thunderosa__> And that just leaves incentivizing accuracy.
22:44:52 <thunderosa__> piece of cake, right? :)
22:51:54 <sgp_> idk, I don't really see how splitting in half is incentivized. If moved, core would pay a fixed amount at the end so it doesn't really matter how it's split up
22:52:23 <sgp_> not like we're paying more if it's done faster or anything
22:52:43 <thunderosa__> no of course not. The amount doesn't change.