00:46:09 <nioc> monermooo funding is complete https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/mooo-2020-12.html
01:38:15 <sgp_> lh1008[m]: I heavily encourage you to rethink your attitude to the Monero communities, or else no one in the communities are going to trust you ever again
01:38:33 <sgp_> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/X5WjGQ2G/Screenshot_20201211-193641_Telegram.jpg
01:39:03 <sgp_> I'm not concerned at all about an attack being successful, but this is extremely reckless and dumb
01:55:09 <sethsimmons> Sigh... If you want to harden the network attack in your own private test net and disclose vulns via Hacker One or PRs.
01:55:09 <sethsimmons> Glad to see “him” siphoning away people for some reason.
10:15:17 <midipoet> hang on, pen testing live environments is standard practice is it not? however, there would need to be boundary constraints put in place, respectful and responsible disclosure mechanisms adhered to, as well as legal agreements between parties. i would think anyway.
10:16:10 <midipoet> also not sure about screenshotting and making public what, i assume, was a private telegram group. but anyways.
10:19:45 <Lovera[m]1> <sgp_ "lh1008: I heavily encourage you "> I'm no longer trust him....
10:20:12 <Inge-> there serms to be some assumption of reasonable intentions.
10:20:44 <Inge-> which, quite frankly, is laughable at this point.
10:27:54 * Lovera[m]1 sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/xBSURxHHoASZCSJozlasuEgo/message.txt >
10:30:21 <Inge-> basically the xmr community ignores that coin and person completely, he just won't let it go and has multiple times claimed he will attack Montero.
10:38:50 <Lovera[m]1> <Inge- "basically the xmr community igno"> I completely ignore Fire.... and his Coin... But i  did not expect such a participation from lh1008...... I never heard that he will attack Monero..
10:42:11 <Inge-> no refering to Fire.
10:42:51 <Inge-> lh1008[m] seems to have good intentions
10:47:17 <sech1> "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" (c)
16:14:48 <staff91[m]> Hello all.
16:14:48 <staff91[m]> https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/staff91-Translation%20and%20review%20of%20GUI%20Wallet,%20monero-site,%20Monero%20Means%20Money%20(subtitles)%20and%20Sound%20Money,%20Safe%20Mode%20(subtitles)%20to%20Italian.html
16:15:26 <staff91[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/186
16:16:47 <Whitecat812> How does it feel to be in the queue to be the bottom bitch in a harem of a narcissistic fraud?
16:16:50 <Whitecat812> If you really want to learn an outdated programming language like C you can just take a course instead of sucking off "the Saviour of NASA"
16:31:47 <rehrar> meeting in half an hour
16:52:34 <sgp_> Did we ever set up auto machine translations on Weblate? As recommendations that would need to be reviewed before merged
16:59:57 <sgp_> midipoet: for the record that wasn't from a private chat
17:00:20 <rehrar> Hello everyone. Meeting time.
17:00:26 <rehrar> 1. Greetings. Who's here?
17:00:30 <luigi1111w> hi
17:01:08 <staff91[m]> hey
17:01:16 <SerHack> hi!
17:01:37 <sgp_> hello
17:01:37 <michaelizer[m]> Hello there
17:01:54 <Chris-Arv[m]> Hello
17:01:54 <oeadgk01[m]> Hello all.
17:02:01 <rehrar> Ping midipoet Erciccione needmoney90
17:02:11 <midipoet> hi
17:02:53 <Inge-> o/
17:03:03 <rehrar> Ok. If others pop in during the meeting that's fine. We'll go ahead and get started.
17:03:37 <rehrar> This meeting is going to be different than the others. We'll still have time for updates, but the bulk of the meeting is going to be spent discussing the recent translation CCS proposals.
17:05:07 <rehrar> For those of you not caught up, it's recently been discovered that the translations are using translation software, such as DeepL to do the translations, and the submitted ones are of low quality. I'll allow the proposers that are present to speak in a minute, but they say it's all part of the plan. Machine translation first, adjustments for context later.
17:06:03 <rehrar> We're going to be discussing people's thoughts on what should be done with these proposals, how the CCS should handle these kinds of things in the future, etc.
17:07:03 <rehrar> Erciccione seems not to be present, but I and others spoke with him in another channel, so I will present his views as best I can when the time comes. As the former leader of the localization workgroup, he's been working with translators for years, so his insight should be taken into consideration.
17:07:22 <rehrar> dEBRUYNE: if you're around too that'd be great.
17:07:28 <rehrar> And let me ping selsta real fast.
17:07:55 <dEBRUYNE> I am here
17:08:16 <rehrar> Thank you.
17:09:06 <kinghat[m]> 👋
17:09:35 <rehrar> So, let's start I guess with hearing from some of the proposers. It's been said that your submitted translations are quite low quality. Many of them verbatim to translation tools, and some with just a few words changed. Can we hear your side of the events?
17:10:24 <rehrar> Welcome Erciccione. Just summarized the situation and opened the floor up the proposers present to give their side of the story.
17:10:38 <luigi1111w> yes
17:10:39 <rehrar> Currently we have staff91[m] and oeadgk01[m] here, am I correct?
17:11:20 <ErCiccione[irc]> thanks rehrar, luigi sent me a summary
17:11:22 <oeadgk01[m]> <rehrar "Currently we have staff91 and oe"> I am here!
17:11:32 <staff91[m]> Yes!
17:11:49 <michaelizer[m]> <rehrar "Currently we have staff91 and oe"> If you mean about translators, me as well
17:12:50 <rehrar> Cool deal. Would you guys (any or all of you) tell is your side to this then?
17:14:08 <staff91[m]> I understand there are some issues here, but I don't know what to tell you. I haven't translate anything yet :D
17:14:54 <oeadgk01[m]> rehrar: Me and zero-andreou  haven't used machine translation at all.
17:15:44 <rehrar> staff91[m]: this is true for Monero, but I do believe serhack, a native italian speaker, looked at some of your past work? Serhack?
17:17:00 <SerHack> staff91[m]: Yes, some words from your past works were translated wrongly. You aren't a native speaker, are you?
17:17:56 <ErCiccione[irc]> Wait what is the point here? The proposal for Italian was approved as it is, i don't think we should judge the experience of the translators here
17:18:21 <staff91[m]> That was two years ago.
17:18:22 <ErCiccione[irc]> i think the point was to decide what to do with approved and already started translations
17:18:35 <ErCiccione[irc]> unless i'm missingthe point of this meeting
17:19:02 <SerHack> ErCiccione: my point was not judging translations, I only had the suspect that he was using DeepL
17:19:02 <staff91[m]> I learned technical terms and crypto terms since then.
17:19:18 <rehrar> the point is to get everything out in the open so luigi1111w, who is present, can make a quality decision
17:19:58 <michaelizer[m]> Ok, I think that no translator is actually perfect, they are barely "decent" when translating technical documents like those related to monero, those we're translating, so it's impossible to machine translate what we're translating without everybody noticing it lacks of sense. So using any translation software in anything else than in a translation with a "colloquial vocabulary" is just not possible
17:20:14 <sgp_> I don't care if a tool is used in the interim if the ending quality is high. But submitting the tool-generated interim stuff for review is a little odd I think? My 2c that the tool isn't the problem, it's the resulting quality being reported
17:20:31 <ErCiccione[irc]> ^
17:20:56 <rehrar> michaelizer[m]: which proposal was yours?
17:20:59 <msvb-mob> Hello, sorry to be late.
17:21:08 <michaelizer[m]> Every several words, there's a technical word, so using a software would screw the entire document up
17:21:28 <michaelizer[m]> <rehrar "michaelizer: which proposal was "> Translation of two video subtitles into Spanish
17:21:41 <staff91[m]> <sgp_ "I don't care if a tool is used i"> But I haven't even translated yet.
17:21:47 <midipoet> > My 2c that the tool isn't the problem, it's the resulting quality being reported < I agree with sgp_
17:21:51 <luigi1111w> it's in ideas still
17:21:54 <rehrar> michaelizer[m]: ah, ok. So you didn't have one of these proposals https://ccs.getmonero.org/funding-required/
17:22:14 <michaelizer[m]> <michaelizer[m] "Translation of two video subtitl"> I'll finish the first video by tomorrow
17:22:34 <rehrar> staff91[m]: this is true. Unfortunately you're collateral damage atm since your proposal is in the same format and came at the same time as the other low quality translations.
17:22:36 <michaelizer[m]> <rehrar "michaelizer: ah, ok. So you didn"> That's correct
17:22:37 <luigi1111w> rehrar we should clarify what the new proposed rule is and take any comments, and then figure out what to do with the ones in funding required, especially the funded ones, in light of that
17:22:44 <dgoddard> +1 for _sgp's note. Quality relevant; tool not
17:23:01 <luigi1111w> the ones in ideas are definitely going to be subject to the new rule
17:23:29 <rehrar> It's very possible that both you and oeadgk01[m] are separate from the rest and it's merely an unfortunate thing that the others came around your guys' time. So if this is the case and you are innocent in this, I apologize and ask that you grit your teeth and bear it as we try to get a handle on this situation.
17:23:30 <staff91[m]> <rehrar "staff91: this is true. Unfortuna"> Okay then.
17:24:21 <rehrar> If you look at it from our perspective, we're dealing with potential greedy peoples just wanting to extract money from us. If you two aren't, then I'm optimistic that will come to light soon.
17:24:47 <michaelizer[m]> <rehrar "staff91: this is true. Unfortuna"> Of course there will be people trying to exploit the system, that's why reviewers must check the translation before any approval, or so it says on the ccs rules
17:25:02 <michaelizer[m]> Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt
17:25:02 <rehrar> But yes, luigi1111w, do let it be noted that staff91[m] has not yet done the Italian translation stuff because ErCiccione[irc] locked down the weblate after we were notified of the low quality translations
17:25:32 <rehrar> michaelizer[m]: yes, but the translators did something smart. They had their reviewer built into the proposal.
17:25:45 <luigi1111w> he is still (way over) funded
17:25:48 <rehrar> One person translates, their reviewer reviews and approves it. IT could be the same person with two accounts for all we know.
17:26:06 <ErCiccione[irc]> i have a proposal to fix that. We can talk about it later
17:26:14 <rehrar> Sounds good. Thanks ErCiccione[irc].
17:26:34 <rehrar> So let it be noted that oeadgk01[m] and staff91[m] claim not to know the other translators, that's correct?
17:27:12 <michaelizer[m]> I pinged lh1008 on mattermost so he could review my translations but haven't received a reply yet
17:27:27 <rehrar> and oeadgk01[m] was the first to submit his proposal after which the copycats came, so there is a higher possibility that he is legit, and if he vouches for staff91[m] then that higher possibility of legitness potentially transfers.
17:27:34 <Chris-Arv[m]> I know staff91
17:27:55 <rehrar> Either way, we haven't found another greek translator to independently verify the greek translations, right ErCiccione[irc]?
17:27:58 <staff91[m]> <Chris-Arv[m] "I know staff91 "> 👍️
17:27:59 <rehrar> I didn't get any bites anyways.
17:28:33 <ErCiccione[irc]> rehrar: I'm not aware of that. I asked some people to take a look at the German, Dutch and French translations, not greek.
17:28:44 <rehrar> wait just noted the huge overfunding of the Italian stuff. wtf?
17:29:08 <rehrar> is there anyone present to speak on behalf of the German, Dutch, and French translations?
17:29:15 <staff91[m]> <rehrar "wait just noted the huge overfun"> I have no idea :D
17:29:26 <staff91[m]> That's crazy
17:29:41 <ErCiccione[irc]> lol. Somebody out there loves italians
17:29:44 <dgoddard> Do not discount the power of the Italian economy
17:29:48 <midipoet> oh i might know somebody that can look at the Greek one
17:29:51 <midipoet> where can it be found
17:29:52 <midipoet> ?
17:30:00 <midipoet> they can just have a quick look for sense
17:30:01 <rehrar> It seems we're dealing with two individual groups. Greek and Italian are one, and the rest are another. It may be that we can treat them separately.
17:31:15 <michaelizer[m]> Well, I didn't copycat any proposal, the format was found on "What is CCS?" And "How to create a proposal?"
17:31:20 <rehrar> it also seems that nobody is here to discuss and defend the Dutch, German, and French translations, all of which have been found to be low quality translations by native speakers in our community
17:31:55 <oeadgk01[m]> <midipoet "?"> Here: https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/oeAdgK01-Translation%20of%20Monero%20CLI%20&%20GUI%20(GUI%20Wallet),%20Getmonero%20(monero-site)%20and%20Community%20(Monero%20Means%20Money%20(subtitles),%20Sound%20Money,%20Safe%20Mode%20(subtitles))%20to%20Greek.html
17:32:12 <michaelizer[m]> <michaelizer[m] "Well, I didn't copycat any propo"> I did copy the rates though 😅
17:32:33 <rehrar> oh goodness, I just noticed there's two more proposals for hungarian and czech
17:32:50 <ErCiccione[irc]> To be fair, my translators said the Dutch translation needs adjustements, but not a complete redo, but another dutch speaker from the community considered it "of poor quality"
17:33:14 <michaelizer[m]> <rehrar "oh goodness, I just noticed ther"> Also, there's a guy on mattermost who said wanted to create a proposal for vietnamese
17:33:24 <dgoddard> Seems like tech idioms was a contention. Is there a lexicon for each translation with "best" translations for Monero idioms? ("Ring Signature", etc)
17:33:27 <rehrar> luigi1111w: what are your thoughts so far?
17:33:53 <ErCiccione[irc]> dgoddard: Yes, we have terminology guides for several languages
17:33:56 <dgoddard> ty
17:34:29 <luigi1111w> it seems the questionable ones have attracted quite a number of unrelated ones
17:34:32 <ErCiccione[irc]> https://github.com/monero-ecosystem/monero-translations#terminology-guides
17:34:48 <michaelizer[m]> <ErCiccione[irc] "dgoddard: Yes, we have terminolo"> I wanted to add some to Spanish in the future, but that's for another time
17:35:05 <oeadgk01[m]> Τhere is no terminology guiide for Greek. Maybe we could create one? Pinging zero-andreou
17:35:26 <ErCiccione[irc]> michaelizer take a look at https://github.com/monero-ecosystem/monero-translations/pull/82
17:35:41 <michaelizer[m]> And the getmoner.org site has some untranslated pages when it says on weblate is 100% translated
17:35:42 <ErCiccione[irc]> i don't think we should focus on the terminology guides at the moment :)
17:35:50 <rehrar> So my thoughts are as follows.
17:36:30 <rehrar> I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to oeadgk01[m] and staff91[m] since they claim to not know the other proposers and bothered to show up today. What this means in practice is as follows.
17:36:45 <rehrar> Greek: Upon finding an independent person to verify the validity of the translations. We proceed as normal.
17:37:09 <oeadgk01[m]> Great!!! ^_^
17:37:12 <rehrar> Italian: We open weblate up for Italian translations and let staff91[m] have his go. We have plenty of native Italian speakers in the community that can see if it's low quality.
17:37:53 <rehrar> The others be closed and can be resubmitted under the new rule that will take place of requiring previous work on Monero before opening a valid CCS proposal for translation
17:37:57 <ErCiccione[irc]> is staff91 the only translator?
17:38:07 <ErCiccione[irc]> we shouldn't have 2 translators/reviewers in the same proposal anymore
17:38:25 <rehrar> all current Chris-Arv[m] is also in the proposal with staff91[m]
17:38:27 <staff91[m]> Chris-Arv:
17:38:43 <rehrar> oops, remove "all current" from my previous message :P
17:38:56 <rehrar> ErCiccione[irc]: ye
17:39:27 <michaelizer[m]> <rehrar "The others be closed and can be "> Does this also applies to me? Spanish? The proposal was opened two weeks ago and 45% of it has been completed. I believe there are plenty of Spanish speakers who can review mine when I'm done
17:39:27 <Chris-Arv[m]> Hello, i am in the proposal yes.
17:39:37 <rehrar> if we can't find a Greek translator to look through the stuff at their leisure, we can use some of the money raised in the other proposals to pay one to give us a bit of their time
17:39:54 <rehrar> michaelizer[m]: your proposal is not yet merged anyways
17:40:01 <michaelizer[m]> I also followed to the letter what you asked on "how to create a proposal"
17:40:04 <ErCiccione[irc]> I'm fine with having the Italian translators work on Weblate, but it will have to be paired with an independent review
17:40:31 <rehrar> sounds good
17:41:00 <rehrar> michaelizer[m]: yes, but a new rule is coming to the CCS about prior translation work for Monero to be eligible for a merge
17:41:07 <luigi1111w> the basic sentiment I want to get across for the future is: No drive-bys, especially at professional rates. We want people to be invested in the project, and not just "randoms" looking for some money. Otherwise we could just hire actual professional outfits.
17:41:22 <rehrar> unfortunately, your proposal would fall into that new rule as well
17:41:34 <staff91[m]> Greeeeat!!
17:41:51 <michaelizer[m]> <rehrar "michaelizer: your proposal is no"> True, but I have no previous work on moner and still can do a perfect translation
17:42:01 <luigi1111w> michaelizer[m] could be eligible by splitting out some portion of his proposal (especially since it may already be done)
17:42:15 <dEBRUYNE> Otherwise we could just hire actual professional outfits. <= Funnily, most actually have cheaper rates
17:42:18 <luigi1111w> upon approval of that, the proposal would be valid
17:42:47 <michaelizer[m]> <luigi1111w "michaelizer could be eligible by"> I wanted to lh1008 to join as reviewer, but he hasn't replied me yet
17:42:55 <rehrar> dEBRUYNE: yes I suppose having a discussion on the rates might be good at a later time too
17:43:08 <midipoet> > if we can't find a Greek translator to look through the stuff at their leisure, we can use some of the money raised in the other proposals to pay one to give us a bit of their time < am asking now
17:43:15 <ErCiccione[irc]> the reviewers, if core likes my proposal, will be provided by the Localization Workgroup
17:43:38 <rehrar> ErCiccione[irc]: can I ask what your plan is for the esoteric languages?
17:44:01 <ErCiccione[irc]> what do you mean?
17:44:38 <rehrar> you say the reviewers will be provided by the localization workgroup. What about the languages where we don't have someone who speaks it? When you say provide do you mean paid for? Or you'll find those people somehow?
17:44:53 <rehrar> just curious. Can be discussed at a later time, I guess.
17:44:58 <michaelizer[m]> rehrar I ask you to please reconsider those proposals created by the time all were (mine and Polish I think), I don't know why it wasn't merged with the others but was created in the same period of time
17:45:32 <midipoet> rehrar: here is the response from a very quick (two pages) check
17:45:37 <michaelizer[m]> And if I'm a translator, how can I be able to translate my first document if I need a previous work to translate?
17:45:43 <midipoet> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/CMhCr5Ki/Screenshot%202020-12-12%20at%2017.45.13.png
17:46:08 <ErCiccione[irc]> it would make no difference, because i would like to actually pay expert reviewers (expert as: they translated Monero stuff already and it's of high quality) who are willing to review
17:46:10 <rehrar> midipoet: can you give him one of the more difficult translations?
17:46:21 <rehrar> ErCiccione[irc]: can we grab one of the more involved samples of text?
17:46:25 <luigi1111w> not to translate; to be eligible to create a CCS to (get paid to) translate
17:46:48 <rehrar> michaelizer[m]: right. What luigi said. So some level of free, volunteer translation is required to get paid to translate.
17:46:51 <michaelizer[m]> <luigi1111w "not to translate; to be eligible"> Is it not the same?
17:46:53 <midipoet> rehrar: i don't know where these are? i am trying to find one. i mean really technical ones, i doubt they will be correct, as it's domain specific, right?
17:47:01 <luigi1111w> it is not
17:47:56 <ErCiccione[irc]> midipoet: any of these: https://translate.getmonero.org/user/zero-andreou/#changes
17:48:05 <oeadgk01[m]> <midipoet "https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn"> Those word are only used for "slang" language.
17:48:30 <oeadgk01[m]> > <@freenode_midipoet:matrix.org> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/CMhCr5Ki/Screenshot%202020-12-12%20at%2017.45.13.png
17:48:30 <oeadgk01[m]>  * Those word are only used for "slang" language. You know what I mean?
17:49:02 <rehrar> michaelizer[m]: you do have the option of translating one for free and then doubling the cost of the other translation if you want, though you'd have to argue for that rate come merge time
17:49:07 <rehrar> sorry man. It's the way it is.
17:49:09 <michaelizer[m]> It's your call, but I think, since you're implementing this now, that those who created it weeks ago should go into this new rule, again, it's just like two languages
17:50:12 <michaelizer[m]> <rehrar "michaelizer: you do have the opt"> I will agree with your decision, but I ask you to think about it and reconsider, in cold, since I see it to be unfair
17:50:13 <rehrar> michaelizer[m]: even if this was the case, then your proposal, since it's still not merged, would be evaluated under its own merit (even without the new rule) and that would still be informed by today's events.
17:50:27 <luigi1111w> so we nix German, Dutch, French?
17:50:36 <rehrar> I would still say no merge without the rule because of current circumstances.
17:50:39 <rehrar> luigi1111w: yes.
17:50:59 <rehrar> what will be done with the money?
17:51:10 <luigi1111w> I suggest translation pool
17:51:10 <ErCiccione[irc]> yeah. I would let the Italian translators work. We will need to review that one and Greek. Then for the next proposals new rules. Right?
17:51:23 <michaelizer[m]> <rehrar "michaelizer: even if this was th"> Well, since me and the polish guys are an exception, you could merged those proposals and apply the rule. It won't get payed until reviewed anyways
17:51:32 <michaelizer[m]> Merge*
17:51:49 <rehrar> Polish guy actually has a lot of prior work though. ;)
17:52:02 <ErCiccione[irc]> Haven't seen that one yet
17:52:03 <michaelizer[m]> Because from my perspective, it was pure randomness those proposals got merged and mine didn't
17:52:09 <luigi1111w> translation pool could include any work needed to fix issues that arose from this, if there are any left ErCiccione[irc] ?
17:52:19 <rehrar> ErCiccione[irc]: it's janowitz
17:52:27 <michaelizer[m]> <rehrar "Polish guy actually has a lot of"> So I'm the only one you're screwing xd
17:52:31 <midipoet> rehrar: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/zVnmcQqL/Screenshot%202020-12-12%20at%2017.52.07.png
17:52:43 <midipoet> that was for one of the long ones that ErCiccione[irc] linked me
17:52:45 <ErCiccione[irc]> rehrar: ah ok got it. I actually suggested him to open that proposal
17:53:00 <luigi1111w> michaelizer[m] it was about a week later
17:53:09 <ErCiccione[irc]> luigi1111: yes. As i was saying i would have a review take a look at the italian and greek translations
17:53:09 <oeadgk01[m]> <midipoet "rehrar: https://usercontent.ircc"> For Greek??? Are you kidding?
17:53:12 <rehrar> michaelizer[m]: if by screwing you mean you have to do a tiny bit of volunteer work and take a small pay cut on an already overpriced translation, then I guess so
17:53:28 <luigi1111w> the reason those 5 got merged was because they had some general approval and I was leaving on vacation for a week. IIRC yours was just opened at that time
17:53:33 <michaelizer[m]> Why those french, dutch, and other proposals got merged when mine was actually following the stated format?
17:53:59 <rehrar> oeadgk01[m]: the guy just vouched for you bro
17:54:27 <oeadgk01[m]> <rehrar "oeadgk01: the guy just vouched f"> Oh ok. LOL!
17:54:29 <midipoet> i think the website SHOULD be translated into slang/street vibes
17:54:32 <michaelizer[m]> <rehrar "michaelizer: if by screwing you "> No problem with that ,just notice that the only old proposal that will be impacted by this rule is mine
17:54:35 <midipoet> in fact i am going to do a CCS
17:54:41 <rehrar> michaelizer[m]: noted ;)
17:54:56 <rehrar> midipoet: none of you nerds are street
17:55:08 <oeadgk01[m]> <midipoet "i think the website SHOULD be tr"> Thats a marketing decision. I translate in a formal but friendly tone.
17:55:13 <rehrar> ok. Anything else luigi1111w?
17:55:38 <ErCiccione[irc]> i have my proposal
17:55:45 <rehrar> go for it ErCiccione[irc]
17:55:57 <luigi1111w> everyone on board using the funds from French and Dutch (and Italian overfunding) in this way?
17:56:01 <midipoet> who the F just said "i won't no street"
17:56:03 <ErCiccione[irc]> luigi1111 summarized it in few words, but i too think would be a good idea to have a fund available for the localization workgroup.
17:56:05 <luigi1111w> (not that any of you were the donors :))
17:56:32 <rehrar> ErCiccione[irc]: managed by you?
17:56:39 <sgp_> reminder: Monero Meet in 5 https://youtu.be/y18kyw1dR_U
17:56:55 <ErCiccione[irc]> The idea is to pay for reviews of translations, not translations themselves (beside in case of special needs, and the will ahve to be discussed).
17:57:15 <rehrar> I'm fine with it.
17:57:30 <luigi1111w> that could be its own CCS eventually
17:57:33 <ErCiccione[irc]> rehrar: by me or by core
17:57:43 <rehrar> oof. You don't want things managed by core bro.
17:57:45 <luigi1111w> I would rather you do it
17:57:54 <luigi1111w> or some volunteer
17:57:55 <rehrar> You'll get an answer for payouts after a month
17:58:01 <luigi1111w> sir
17:58:04 <rehrar> ;)
17:58:07 <ErCiccione[irc]> I would prefer to do it just for simplicity
17:58:08 <oeadgk01[m]> I am going offline guys!
17:58:14 <rehrar> ok, thank you oeadgk01[m]!
17:58:22 <rehrar> thanks for working with us. Sorry it's been a bit painful.
17:58:28 <ErCiccione[irc]> i have some copuy pasted text i prepared earlier:
17:58:35 <oeadgk01[m]> <rehrar "thanks for working with us. Sorr"> No worries! Thank you as well!
17:58:42 <ErCiccione[irc]> This could have been a CCS proposal, but since the point is not to pay reviewer, but to give them a token of appreciation i think we could use the general fund for this. The translators will be working mostly on core stuff (Website, GUI, CLI), but not only. My intention would be to award reviewers < 1 XMR for an entire review. Of course the reward would vary depending how much work and time would be needed for the review.
17:58:50 <ErCiccione[irc]> All payments would be recorded and the details will be public on the repository of the workgroup on Github (amount rewarded, contributor, detail of the work, date)
17:59:00 <ErCiccione[irc]> This is unrelated to the work necessary to fix the changes on Weblate after the latest CCS drama. I'll do my part as volunteer, but could be necessary to reward reviewers for checking translations. Core already agreed in giving a small amount of XMR to the reviewers working on that. I will keep in contact with them about it.
17:59:15 <ErCiccione[irc]>  The idea is to pay for reviews of translations, not translations themselves (beside in case of special needs, and the will ahve to be discussed). This would be beneficial for several reasons: translators opening CCS proposals will only take care of translating, the localization workgroup will take care of reviewing. This will avoid the problem of people self-approving their translations and will fix the problem of the
17:59:16 <ErCiccione[irc]> long delay between the completition of the CCS tasks and the actual completition of the CCS (A CCS is completed after all or part of the translations have been reviewed).
17:59:17 <rehrar> luigi1111w: thoughts on using the overfund of Italian for this as well or is that too much atm?
17:59:24 <ErCiccione[irc]>  /end pasted text
17:59:31 <rehrar> the overfund is....monumental
17:59:37 <luigi1111w> it's too much, but the pool doesn't need to be fully used right now
17:59:54 <ErCiccione[irc]> yeah. Way too much.
18:00:16 <rehrar> ok.
18:00:19 <ErCiccione[irc]> i'd use some of those XMR to reward reviewers, then we can see
18:00:28 <rehrar> and you know what guys? I think that's a wrap on that whole situation.
18:00:41 <ErCiccione[irc]> what do you mean?
18:00:48 <rehrar> on the decisions that need to be made
18:00:52 <luigi1111w> ErCiccione[irc] are you going to herd these people?
18:00:52 <rehrar> I know there's cleanup still to be done
18:01:17 <rehrar> but in terms of core involvement and decision making, I think we accomplished what needed to be done in this meeting.
18:01:18 <ErCiccione[irc]> luigi1111: i've been doing it for some time now :)
18:01:34 <luigi1111w> :) but do you want to continue
18:01:38 <rehrar> :)
18:01:40 <Chris-Arv[m]> The donations are towards the Italian translation proposal though.
18:01:51 <rehrar> Chris-Arv[m]: this is not how the CCS works
18:02:03 <rehrar> https://ccs.getmonero.org/what-is-ccs/
18:02:07 <rehrar> read the "For Donors" section
18:02:08 <luigi1111w> like is this reviewer fund something you want to manage, or are you just doing it because no one else is
18:02:16 <rehrar> "In the event that a proposal is overfunded, unable to be completed, or otherwise put in a state where donated money will not be dispersed to the intended recipient, the default is that the remaining XMR will be put in the Monero General Fund. There are some exceptions, but they are rare, and these decisions rest with the Core Team."
18:02:23 <rehrar> number 2
18:02:42 <Chris-Arv[m]> I have read that but didn't remember
18:02:54 <luigi1111w> overfunding like that going to the proposal invites money laundering
18:03:01 <luigi1111w> it's still really odd unless fat finger
18:03:11 <rehrar> Chris-Arv[m]: I too got overfunded back in the day. I was also excited then disappointed. :D
18:03:22 <luigi1111w> that's what Monero does best
18:03:25 <ErCiccione[irc]> luigi1111w: I know i'm the best person to do it. I built the system, i know it well, i would prefer to deal with that instead of somebody else :P
18:03:26 <rehrar> luigi1111w: more strange since it came after the proposal was funded
18:03:42 <ErCiccione[irc]> i can take care of the translation side, i leave ccs-proposer management to you :)
18:03:56 <Chris-Arv[m]> Anyway I am going afk!!!
18:03:59 <Chris-Arv[m]> Bye guys
18:04:03 <rehrar> ok, a few logistics aside between ErCiccione[irc] and luigi1111w, I think we can call the meeting here. Thanks for everyone else who came to listen, lurk, or give feedback!
18:04:08 <rehrar> cya Chris-Arv[m]
18:04:14 <rehrar> meeting over. Bye!
18:04:24 <staff91[m]> bb
18:04:26 <luigi1111w> ErCiccione[irc] great
18:04:38 <michaelizer[m]> I will still ask you to reconsider every proposal made before this new rule by separate, after this meeting, since not all of us came here to do wrong, and not all cases are the same, and exceptions are something to take into account.
18:04:53 <michaelizer[m]> But I agree with what you proposed
18:04:56 <luigi1111w> we can seed the pool with 20 (or pick a number) XMR or something and see how it goes?
18:05:35 <msvb-mob> Is there some other way to have a community meeting where agenda items are discussed?
18:05:39 <ErCiccione[irc]> Yeah, that will be fine
18:05:56 <msvb-mob> We are one day late for becoming part of the Defcon New Years Village party, for example.
18:06:14 <ErCiccione[irc]> luigi1111w let me know how you prefer to do with the technicalities
18:06:15 <luigi1111w> seems like the time to discuss that would've been at least one day ago
18:06:32 <msvb-mob> There was no meeting one day ago luigi1111w, nor one week nor two weeks ago.
18:07:00 <rehrar> msvb-mob: I'm always available even outside of meetings
18:07:12 <rehrar> and I can bring things to the attention of the proper people or even call an emergency meeting
18:07:23 <michaelizer[m]> I have a bittersweet feeling since I WANT to contribute to monero, that's the main goal, yeas, I need the money, that's the second goal, and for a work I've been doing for about two weeks, and some new rules come up and now what I did goes for free because I need this requirement of previous work, I don't know, just please rethink this after this meeting is over, That's all I ask.
18:07:35 <msvb-mob> rehrar: The people involved in deciding meeting items (maybe a handful to a dozen )are not available outside of meetings at the same time, no.
18:07:39 <michaelizer[m]> * I have a bittersweet feeling since I WANT to contribute to monero, that's the main goal, yeah, I need the money, that's the second goal, and for a work I've been doing for about two weeks, and some new rules come up and now what I did goes for free because I need this requirement of previous work, I don't know, just please rethink this after this meeting is over, That's all I ask.
18:07:46 <rehrar> msvb-mob: I am the only one
18:08:02 <msvb-mob> I don't think this agenda item is worth an emergency meeting, does anybody disagree?
18:08:09 <rehrar> and I am available on Wire, Telegram, IRC, email, and many other ways
18:08:13 <ErCiccione[irc]> luigi1111w rehraR: just one clarification. The German, Dutch and French translations need to be reverted, right?
18:08:22 <luigi1111w> ErCiccione[irc] afaik
18:08:30 <msvb-mob> There are several of us who decide village topics, in fact. See the Taiga projects.
18:08:30 <rehrar> msvb-mob: well, I'm here now as are a few others. Let's talk about it then. :)
18:08:34 <michaelizer[m]> <michaelizer[m] "I have a bittersweet feeling sin"> If you still decide that's the way to go for my proposal in specific, let's go with it
18:08:41 <ErCiccione[irc]> alright. That will take some time, because i have to do it manually
18:08:44 <rehrar> msvb-mob: yes, but not community meeting agenda items. THat's me.
18:09:14 <rehrar> I'm assuming this village party will be digital?
18:09:29 <luigi1111w> michaelizer[m] in your case since it's just 2 large jobs, maybe you can split out part of them (which you might already have done?) and show they are high quality work
18:09:30 <rehrar> if Monero Village would take part, what would be expected of us?
18:09:35 <msvb-mob> rehrar: I understand you control the agenda, okay. I guess that's a indirect answer to my question. How can I get an item on the agenda in the future, you mean to contact you rehrar by IRC or email directly. Is that right?
18:09:49 <rehrar> msvb-mob: sure that's fine
18:09:58 <rehrar> msvb-mob: do you have time to discuss the Defcon thing now?
18:10:13 <ErCiccione[irc]> rehrar: i might need your help when will be time to revert translations (sson actually)
18:10:14 <msvb-mob> I have a little time, so I'll briefly state the requirements.
18:10:16 <ErCiccione[irc]> *soon
18:10:57 <michaelizer[m]> <luigi1111w "michaelizer in your case since i"> 1 is already done, just like 1000 words left and review, and I can prove they are of great quality if you find a Spanish reviewer
18:11:01 <msvb-mob> The requirements for participation at the Defcon New Year's eve village party are very weak and unclear. We already are accepted if we want to participate, but the village is asked to provide things like a website, artwork, emojis, a contest.
18:11:07 <rehrar> ErCiccione[irc]: I will be taking time off very soon for the holidays. I'm more than happy to help and do it after they're done though.
18:11:12 <msvb-mob> The party is exclusively on Discord. I'm not sure we want to do this.
18:11:14 <rehrar> If they need to be done ASAP then I can work something out I guess
18:11:35 <ErCiccione[irc]> rehrar: nevermind, no worries :)
18:11:51 <rehrar> ErCiccione[irc]: no no. I WANT to help. If it needs to be done in the next couple of weeks, then I'll make the time for it.
18:12:06 <luigi1111w> michaelizer[m] speak with ErCiccione[irc] about a reviewer I think
18:12:15 <msvb-mob> Does anybody have a strong interest to contribute work to our village for the New Year's party?
18:12:44 <rehrar> msvb-mob: I will not have time. I'll be taking time off until the end of the year as I just said, so I would vote no.
18:13:11 <michaelizer[m]> <luigi1111w "michaelizer speak with ErCiccion"> Ok, will do, one option is lh1008 who is from Colombia and he has already contributed to Monero, I'll try to ping him again as well
18:13:13 <msvb-mob> rehrar: I heard similar opinions from at least two other people, it seems many are going to be offline during the New Years eve.
18:14:18 <rehrar> yes. And I've done C3 the past couple of years too. I haven't had a Christmas or NY celebration since three years ago. :D
18:14:24 <rehrar> I'm content with not doing anything this year.
18:15:01 <luigi1111w> michaelizer[m] if your whole (or most) translation is done and approved before merging then that would kinda count in my book. However the price probably needs adjusted.
18:15:52 <ErCiccione[irc]> All translators should join #monero-translations. We use that chat to coordinate
18:16:08 <msvb-mob> That's great to see you guys working so hard to manage the translation work ErCiccione rehrar midipoet luigi1111w SerHack, thanks a lot.
18:16:39 <rehrar> apologies for the poor communication on getting things added to the agenda msvb-mob. But yes, in the future, just let me know at any time, on any channel that I'm available. I'll make sure it's discussed.
18:17:00 <michaelizer[m]> <luigi1111w "michaelizer if your whole (or mo"> First milestone will be done later tomorrow, and sure, I can adjust the price, just thought "if every language is asking this, why wouldn't Spanish"
18:17:43 <michaelizer[m]> But there's no fixed value here 😄
18:18:51 <ErCiccione[m]> michaelizer: staff91  please join #monero-localizations:matrix.org
18:19:36 <ErCiccione[irc]> rehrar could you join -translations as well?
18:20:47 <luigi1111w> michaelizer[m] yeah we should've pushed on the price a bit, in retrospect. However I was more referring to the fact that Monero has changed in price in the last 2 weeks.
18:29:16 * ErCiccione[irc] back to matrix
18:48:28 <midipoet> rehrar: if you are in charge of meetings for community, is there a reason it's not done in the usual manner (through GitHub meta/issues?)
18:49:02 <midipoet> I would rather that, so it's clear, in the open and can be referred to by any and all at their leisure.
18:49:17 <midipoet> Seems non-sensical to always go through you.
18:57:11 <msvb-mob> midipoet: Hopefully as things stabilise there will be a good way to know when the next meeting will be and what the agenda is.
18:57:28 <msvb-mob> Maybe there will be a differnt method as the previous one to know these things.
18:57:45 <msvb-mob> I'm a bit confused as well, but maybe there is a reason for the new changes.
18:57:49 <midipoet> I don't understand why there need to be a different method, the last method was fine.
18:58:29 <midipoet> If core are in charge, and have delegated to rehrar, then rehrar should take the lead. If he doesn't want to do it, or feels he shouldn't, then rehrar should just say and then someone else should do it
18:59:07 <midipoet> Just seems like a vacuum was being pointed to for some reason or another  and all that happened was meetings didn't happen.
18:59:12 <msvb-mob> That sounds easy, but is probably a clash of theory and practice as the easy sounding things usually are.
19:00:04 <msvb-mob> I'm lost about it, partly because I have not done the work to inform myself on the changes in general. Or maybe the information is secret anyway.
19:28:10 <luigi1111w> meta seems good to m
19:28:11 <luigi1111w> e
19:41:43 <sethsimmons> https://reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/kbv35c/poll_gauging_community_sentiment_towards/
19:41:44 <monerobux> [REDDIT] [POLL] Gauging community sentiment towards regulation (self.Monero) | 5 points (100.0%) | 0 comments | Posted by fort3hlulz | Created at 2020-12-12 - 19:24:15