01:15:19 -xmr-pr- [css-proposals] lh1008 opened pull request #182: Mastering Monero Spanish Translation 01:15:20 -xmr-pr- > https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/182 10:30:19 -xmr-pr- [css-proposals] darckme opened pull request #183: darck9me-Translation of GUI Wallet, monero-site, Monero Means Money (s... 10:30:20 -xmr-pr- > https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/183 15:30:20 -xmr-pr- [css-proposals] ivaylo7s opened pull request #184: ivaylo7s-Translation and review of GUI Wallet, monero-site, Monero Mea... 15:30:20 -xmr-pr- > https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/184 15:36:29 Proposal for translation to German: [ivaylo7s-Translation and review of GUI Wallet, monero-site, Monero Means Money (subtitles), Sound Money, Safe Mode (subtitles) to German](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/184) 16:58:45 https://bitonic.nl/en/news/213/additional-verification-measures-due-to-registration-application 17:01:25 oof 17:01:33 Say goodbye to privacy wallets like Samourai 17:09:55 at least they did it under protest 17:10:16 For sure 17:10:51 Thats a very bad next step for regulation if it comes to other countries 17:16:56 Got the same invitation to "verify address" from AnyCoin Direct, Netherlands also. And no more XMR, of course. Extremely useful for me :) 17:19:54 Should change their name to somecoinsdirect 17:23:43 lol 17:28:58 what happens if they just impose the same rules on XMR? 17:29:12 The address registration/verification rule 17:29:31 This has been on the horizon for some time to come and is it really that suprising? 17:29:49 * This has been on the horizon for some time to come and is it really that surprising? 17:30:43 sethsimmons: when you say goodbye to privacy wallets, who do you see that playing out? 17:30:53 * sethsimmons: when you say goodbye to privacy wallets, how do you see that playing out? 17:31:20 I see a tremendous obstacle in the enforcement of such actions 17:31:34 * I see a tremendous obstacle/challenge in the enforcement of such actions 17:31:54 And a privacy wallet is no more dangerous to the state than a privacy coin in and of itself 17:32:53 if you're going to attempt a ban on a wallet (which is basically a bandaid) why not go for the head of the dragon and ban privacy coins when the political support is there? 17:34:32 I am honestly starting to think they will (ban privacy coins). 17:34:46 Oh it's coming...just wait. 17:34:51 They call them anonymity coins/anonymity enhancing coins 17:35:09 And just say it's unlawful/dangerous/danger to nation security/economic stability 17:35:30 If not now, then within five years 17:36:04 Unless banks take a stand (doubtful given the threats to their licence and little upside) 17:36:27 They'll let bitcoin fly in the name of technological progress, but privacy coins will be drug under the cloak of "financing of terrorism and child abuse" use case. It's the governments go to anytime they seek to instill fear in a populous and push through legislation that probably doesn't make sense 17:36:43 The only think (which that Dutch article points to) is if someone takes a court case and says it's a disproportionate violation of privacy and self determination 17:36:53 And call in the UN rappatuer for such 17:36:58 *calls in 17:38:19 The other option is to make a stance that a permissionless network is owned by its node operators 17:38:32 And then there may be a private property right of some sort 17:40:30 'Code as Free Speech' will be challenged at the highest levels 17:46:54 I think anyone who thinks there won't be a big struggle for the heart and soul of privacy is incorrect. 17:47:15 100% 17:47:23 The war is coming. Encryption is under attack again, delisting and other regulations, etc. There will be a war. It's a matter of when. 17:48:26 And we can't think we can sit on our laurels and things will just work out. Even with prior judicial precedent. 17:58:35 rehrar: then we should start a CCS for the lawsuit now 17:58:38 That's the only way 17:58:52 I would be willing to help write it up 17:59:26 We have two options. Data protection violation, or human rights/disproportionate behaviour direction 17:59:51 that's the only way this would get solved. 18:00:02 Otherwise we are shouting into a void 18:00:30 I would go with human rights. It would hopefully establish precedent (or further enforce) that privacy is a human right that can't be taken from us. Intrinsic to people. 18:00:54 data protection is also a EU Fundamental right 18:01:31 Either the way, the next question is who to suppeona 18:02:14 *either way 18:02:22 And that's a more difficult question 18:02:46 could you sue a central bank, for arguments sake? 18:03:15 unknown. This is your homework. ;) 18:03:23 Lol 18:04:12 You might be able to sue one of the independent bodies such as the FCA, or the Payments Systems Regulator. 18:04:29 For negligence/malpractice 18:04:44 With regards to financial privacy 18:05:02 Someone shared an unbelievable document with me the other day. Did I share it here? 18:05:42 Relax guys, the WEF says you will love having no privacy in 2030 18:06:36 https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/papers/2013/P3822.pdf 18:07:34 oceanus[m]: to be honest the whole "transparent world for everybody" might be a noble goal in theory - but it's proven that privacy hierarchy just gets created by the free market. 18:08:15 midipoet: big brother loves you 18:09:43 lol 18:11:58 like the more i look into it (as part of research groups), the more i am convinced that they want the bitcoin model for the data. its hugely valuable being able to track, trace, analyse, and then discriminate/manipulate according to the information they have discovered about spending patterns, habits, relationships, etc. 18:13:24 midipoet: similar 18:13:25 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBUPEv6KlnM&feature=emb_logo 18:13:25 [ Albert Wenger of USV: "Decentralization: Two Possible Futures" | Blockstack Berlin 2018 - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com 18:13:55 The argument made is that due to fundamental asymmetry, privacy destroys more than it protects. 18:14:13 Although to me, the opposite would also be true. Transparency would also be used to destroy much more than it would be used to protect. 18:15:13 rehrar: yeah - you have shared that before on reddit, and we discussed it ;-) 18:15:35 though, the complete transparency model - might be able to bring down capitalism 18:15:57 as that is based on fundamental information asymmetries 18:16:29 if everyone knows the markup of and supplier of a product, well, then everyone (in theory) has access to the profit. 18:16:58 this line of argument can also be applied to NDAs, Trade secrets, etc 18:24:01 I like the whole 'bring down capitalism' meme as if it's now settled economics 18:26:30 sure, but sometimes (just personal belief) i do wonder whether i would give up my own privacy to ensure that the rich and the evil corps had to give up theirs. 18:26:46 alternatively, i get to keep mine, but they keep theirs. 18:27:20 its not an easy dilemna to solve, imo 18:27:39 agreed. A nuanced conversation. 18:30:22 the rich will always have power 18:30:26 it's like.....defined 18:30:44 midipoet: upon a bit of thought, Monero actually works in the opposite direction 18:31:06 rather than forcing transparency that is expected from the common man on the rich, it gives the common man power to similar levels of privacy that have previously only been available tot he rich 18:31:08 *to the 18:32:05 yeah. that's fair 18:32:14 but is that a better world? 18:32:35 it's up to what people individually believe. I believe it's something that would bring about change. Let me outline the mechanism. 18:32:39 while i know it's probably better for me, i don't know if its better for everybody 18:33:34 Under one framework of thinking, the rich have been able to evade taxes through their privaacy means and offshore accounts for a long time. This puts undue burden on the common man to pay for society. If the common man now has the way to hide and evade tax as the rich due, it would cause the infrastructure to rot. 18:33:56 This forces far reaching tax reform. Hopefully this reform would cover the rich and common person to a more egalitarian degree. 18:34:05 Basically, change only happens as society begins to collapse in this method. 18:34:27 This would also take a long time, as the free market would pick up a good amount of the slack, effectively masking the visibility of the rot for some time. 18:35:27 Under another worldview, it allows "trade secrets" to become "personal secrets", effectively setting up everyone on an individual level to have leverage in a capitalist system that they didn't before. 18:35:46 that's fair. 18:35:56 but the world is already collapsing 18:36:10 its gonna get horrid in the next 10-20 years 18:36:13 i would imagine 18:36:23 Before, corps would utilize connections and their status to keep things private. These avenues were not available to the common person. While Monero wouldn't solve the 'connections' problem, it does allow everyone to have an edge in capitalism since, in theory, more things are private to the individual. 18:36:58 rehrar - in reality though, Monero only helps the priviledged 18:37:14 not teh rich - but the rich AND the priviledged 18:37:22 or educated/developed nations, whatever 18:37:42 i mean, my mother - there is no way she could use Monero. 18:37:45 this is true, people in Nigeria have to pay per MB for their internet still. Monero will not help them. 18:38:09 but its not only technical exclusion. there is operational exclusion 18:38:17 midipoet: but the same could also be said of the internet. It's fairly easy to use, but for many older people it's caused more harm than good. Taking their job, falling for scams because they're not savvy. 18:38:43 The internet is also operationally exclusive to the older generation. 18:38:45 my mother, sister wouldn't be able to use it. my gf only barely. jesus - even i struggle most of the time and get stuck on things 18:39:24 this is where the coveted "better UI/UX to prepare it for the masses" thing comes in. I personally think it's a pipe dream. You can only optimize and abstract so much before you end up with custodial wallets. 18:39:39 we already have a custodial system 18:39:44 There will always be some level of investment and learning necessary to 'be your own bank'. 18:39:51 i would hazard a guess 90% of wallet/usage is custodial 18:40:01 and yes, the VAST majority of people are not ready or willing to be their own bank 18:40:07 so cryptocurrency will always be niche ;) 18:40:10 maybe not 90% in Monero, but certainly wider 18:44:05 I disagree, USB wallets are easy to use 18:44:23 Banks are hard to use, we are just used to them 18:44:36 most people cannot handle keys, are bad with password management and have zero idea of the danger encryption can pose if they lose control of their personal data and ultimately lose control of their funds. 18:44:46 banks are inconvenient to use. I wouldn't say hard. Especially since there's a person holding your hand if you need. 18:45:07 there is no recourse with encryption. there is no recourse to recover lost funds. 18:45:12 the difference between inconvenient and hard, to me, is loss 18:45:37 with a bank, it may be frustrating to use, but I know that few, if any, of my decision will result in the complete loss of my money 18:45:55 crypto is both frustrating to use, and several decision you make may result in the complete loss of your money 18:46:00 this is more than inconvenient. It's hard. 18:50:10 yep 18:50:54 I talk to people who struggle with it everyday and choose to remain on the sidelines out of fear of looking stupid or losing control of positions 18:51:41 https://sneak.berlin/20181022/sneaks-law/ 19:11:14 what banks give you is a trust framework that protects me from myself (losing my debit card) but also to protect me from the other (fraud, scams, etc). that is a massive value added, that in no way exists in cryptocurrency 21:42:09 I'll be spinning up my own Monerobox this weekend if anyone wants to follow along 21:42:20 I may need some CLI help 21:42:40 I bought a node from monerobox.store and it's pretty slick 21:54:43 and if you have some spare machine with docker, there is like one line ... 23:15:08 ^