13:24:13 <lederstrumpf> luigi1111w: where can I find a GPG key of yours?
13:25:30 <lederstrumpf> Asking so that I can include it in the warning banner of our CCS proposal for refund mails sent to luigi1111⊙go
13:42:14 <luigi1111> in monero src under utils I think
13:45:51 <dsc_> https://featherwallet.org/
14:48:55 <lederstrumpf> Thanks luigi1111 - found & added.
15:50:51 <rehrar> msvb-web: is there a grayhat meeting today?
15:50:55 <rehrar> cuz there's a community one
15:54:41 <dixie__flatline[> I guess community meeting is here, within 5 minutes?
15:54:57 <rehrar> No, it's in an hour. 17 UTC.
15:55:27 <dixie__flatline[> rehrar: In the Matrix room description, it says 16:00 UTC (Coffee Chat)
15:55:57 <rehrar> Hmmm...that's wrong.
15:56:06 <rehrar> And the coffee chat is different than the community meeting. It's a video type thing.
15:56:21 <rehrar> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEWloLhVHWQ
15:56:21 <monerobux> [ Monero Coffee Chat - 2019.06.01 - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com
15:56:41 <dixie__flatline[> I see.
16:11:59 <xmrscott[m]> But can you see why kids love the taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch?
16:47:48 <rehrar> meeting soon
17:00:03 <rehrar> alrighty then let's get started shall we?
17:00:06 <rehrar> 1. Greetings
17:00:14 <h4sh3d[m]> hello
17:00:14 <rehrar> Anyone around for the meeting?
17:00:23 <TheCharlatan> hi
17:01:18 <ErCiccione[m> hi
17:01:28 <rehrar> Cool. Some people may trickle in later on.
17:01:52 <rehrar> 2. CCS Updates
17:02:13 <rehrar> Someone mentioned changing Funding Required to Funding Requested
17:02:16 <rehrar> yay? nay?
17:02:45 <msvb-lab> Hello.
17:02:50 <h4sh3d[m]> remember that, the latter is a bit better for sementic IMO
17:03:17 <rehrar> sarang's CCS is now open for anyone who wants to donate
17:03:22 <rehrar> and ErCiccione[m juuust got funded
17:03:50 <ErCiccione[m> Yeah that was superquick. Thanks for the support folka :)
17:03:55 <ErCiccione[m> *folks
17:03:57 <rehrar> let's talk about the ez one
17:04:02 <rehrar> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/172
17:04:05 <rehrar> serbian translation 3 XMR
17:04:09 <rehrar> yes no maybe?
17:04:28 <ErCiccione[m> I'm super neutral
17:04:40 <ErCiccione[m> Doesn't look like many cared about it
17:04:57 <rehrar> I'll one up you by being ultra neutral
17:05:12 <ErCiccione[m> but it's a very low amount and translations are always useful
17:05:51 <ErCiccione[m> but yeah, mostly neutral
17:06:25 <h4sh3d[m]> what's the plan for supporting different languages on the website? is there a list of next wanted translation?
17:06:42 <h4sh3d[m]> or just do it when people propose to do it?
17:08:02 <ErCiccione[m> No list. Whatever people are willing to work on
17:08:46 <rehrar> ok, next up
17:08:49 <rehrar> Atomic Swaps
17:08:54 <rehrar> h4sh3d[m]: did you add that thing?
17:08:55 <h4sh3d[m]> Ok. Seem to be a good proposal (and he has plan to continue on translations after that one, which is good)
17:08:56 <rehrar> I'm not seeing it
17:09:17 <h4sh3d[m]> Yes, one sec. Merging
17:09:55 <rehrar> we shall twiddle our thumbs as we wait
17:11:04 <h4sh3d[m]> Ok, sorry, now it's merged you should see it
17:11:34 <rehrar> go ahead and edit it into the overview also
17:12:08 <h4sh3d[m]> edited
17:12:35 <lederstrumpf> summary of the changes:
17:13:47 <lederstrumpf> 1. added a warning header that this ccs request deviates from the normal rules
17:13:47 <lederstrumpf> 2. converted funding amount to XMR based on yesterday's 7-day EMA XMR/USD on Kraken
17:13:47 <lederstrumpf> 3. added link to our website
17:14:25 <lederstrumpf> changes can be seen here:
17:14:25 <lederstrumpf> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/168/diffs?commit_id=a6dbb10f0506450a4d7060adcb42b96f2f4b7591
17:14:40 <rehrar> the CCS deviations he's talking about are now on the top of the overview screen. First thing on the proposal.
17:14:43 <rehrar> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/168
17:15:02 <rehrar> I will go ahead and paste it into this chat for ease of access.
17:15:21 <lederstrumpf> ah, and before this batch of changes, we incorporated changes Dr. Daniel Kim (intj440) requested last week: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/168/diffs?commit_id=5b3597867cc97ae75323216b6f2068ad0b9ae1cd
17:15:35 <rehrar> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/WqWrgyrE/ccs-atomicswap-change.txt
17:18:18 <rehrar> are there any; comments on this?
17:20:31 <rehrar> I know sgp_  and ErCiccione[m were the big proponents of getting something like this into the proposal
17:20:40 <rehrar> so I'll call on you guys specifically to see if you have anything to add
17:22:38 <rehrar> ok, well it appears there are no comments :P
17:22:44 <TheCharlatan> crickets
17:22:45 <ErCiccione[m> i don't think i asked to add something like that in the proposal. My point was always about improving the CCS system as a whole, not the single proposal. anyway, good that there is a disclaimer, but personally i'm already of the opinion "whatever core decides"
17:23:08 <rehrar> cool deal
17:23:30 <lederstrumpf> here's also explicitly the link to our website: https://cryp.ee/crowdfund/
17:23:41 <rehrar> Ok. Moving on. Bulletproofs+
17:23:56 <rehrar> As has been said by myself previously, and sarang also, since he is not longer with MRL, we might want to give this a fresh look.
17:23:57 <rehrar> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/156
17:24:28 <rehrar> previously it was thought that MRL/Monero devs could do the engineering and the proposers could do the audit. This was because our people are more familiar with how exactly BP+ should be implemented.
17:25:16 <rehrar> does anybody have any strong opinions one way or another? I will probably poke at the authors and see if I can't get them to come talk at an MRL meeting or the next community meeting
17:25:30 <TheCharlatan> I think that ccs should be closed and re-opened with new goals stated.
17:25:52 <rehrar> TheCharlatan: ok. Can you elaborate on the new goals?
17:26:48 <h4sh3d[m]> "[...] We want to submit a new proposal for evaluating, reviewing and auditing Bullettproofs+. [...]"
17:27:01 <h4sh3d[m]> from their last comment on the MR
17:27:25 <TheCharlatan> exactly :)
17:27:33 <rehrar> yes, but someone should talk with them. Because it's unknown whether we have the manpower and expertise to make BP+ with sarang gone?
17:27:37 <rehrar> or we still can?
17:27:51 <rehrar> and they can do the audit still, like what was planned before
17:28:08 <rehrar> because otherwise, the alternative is to get them to do the whole thing as proposed in this proposal
17:28:12 <h4sh3d[m]> who implemented the crypto in the past? only sarang?
17:28:17 <rehrar> and perhaps get it externally audited
17:28:19 <zkao> sarang said the prototype (in python) is ready
17:28:33 <rehrar> sarang would often do the prototyping and mooo would implement I believe
17:28:49 <rehrar> and if zkao says the prototype is done, then maybe we can indeed do it. Thanks for the info zkao
17:28:50 <h4sh3d[m]> so we should ask mooo if he wants to
17:29:06 <h4sh3d[m]> (Yeah, remember sarang saying that too)
17:29:44 <rehrar> alrighty
17:29:49 <rehrar> that should be it for CCS proposals then
17:29:57 <rehrar> any final words on the topic from anyone?
17:30:07 <lederstrumpf> yes
17:30:28 <zkao> can u guys check the website: https://cryp.ee/about/
17:30:47 <h4sh3d[m]> https://cryp.ee/crowdfund/
17:30:47 <zkao> https://cryp.ee/crowdfund/
17:30:53 <zkao> sorry!
17:31:07 <lederstrumpf> the link h4sh3d[m] dropped is the correct one :P
17:31:12 <lederstrumpf> sorry for the spam ^^
17:31:26 <lederstrumpf> anyway: that's the link we provide in the CCS proposal
17:32:18 <lederstrumpf> the gist is that we may also be accepting BTC donations in the future
17:32:23 <rehrar> coo
17:32:28 <rehrar> alright. Moving on.
17:32:41 <rehrar> 3. Workgroup reports
17:33:00 <rehrar> ErCiccione[m lh1008[m] xmrhaelan dEBRUYNE dsc_
17:33:01 <rehrar> others!
17:33:20 <rehrar> update us as to the sweat of your brow
17:34:22 <ErCiccione[m> Nothing new about the website. Work is progressing. I PRd some translations few days ago, o the website is not translatable on weblate at the moment
17:35:05 <ErCiccione[m> if anybody speaks german and wnats to help, there are some moneropedia entries  that need to be reviewed :)
17:35:14 <ErCiccione[m> (and more will come)
17:35:42 <ErCiccione[m> I would also like to point out again that reviewers for monero-site would be appreciated
17:36:54 <rehrar> ok neato
17:36:58 <rehrar> msvb-nop: are you here?
17:37:19 <rehrar> is there a Grayhat meeting right after this? Or do you want to discuss some Grayhat things here?
17:37:54 <msvb-nop> Hello, very poorly connected.
17:38:31 <msvb-nop> Out Last grayhat meeting ist nett Week #4 of 4.
17:38:43 <rehrar> oh! ok. Perfect.
17:38:43 <msvb-nop> Next Werk.
17:38:48 <rehrar> Anything you want to discuss this week about it?
17:39:23 <msvb-nop> Too poorly connected for that.
17:40:03 <rehrar> ok sounds good
17:40:19 <rehrar> 4. Open Ideas Time
17:40:41 <rehrar> this is a time preserved for anyone attending the meeting to speak about something they'd like to discuss. It can be a brand new thing, something old, or anything in between.
17:40:54 <TheCharlatan> I have something.
17:41:12 <rehrar> go for it
17:41:37 <TheCharlatan> IIRC both sarang and surae were hired through some online job postings, or by word of mouth way back when monero just got off its feet.
17:41:59 <TheCharlatan> What efforts do we intend to spend to replace them, or attract new talent?
17:43:34 <TheCharlatan> The ccs by itself feels very ill-suited to me - or at least in its current form.
17:43:37 <rehrar> oof. this is a good question, and not something I think any of us know. But I'm happy  to discuss it.
17:44:03 <rehrar> I do know that suraeNoether was found by fluffypony back in the day, and then sarang, who knew surae, came as a result of that.
17:44:13 <TheCharlatan> Coming from outside there is virtually no indication that the project did support two full time researchers for quite a long period of time.
17:44:44 <rehrar> but core was also much more involved and the community more tightknit about getting stuff like that done. Current gen Monero people have never had to attract talent in such a way. People just sometimes show up and start working and then go on CCS.
17:45:08 <h4sh3d[m]> (maybe sarang know someone)
17:45:32 <TheCharlatan> There are some initiatives to get new students interested, but these will take time.
17:47:15 <kinghat[m]> about the ccs, what are the reason(s) to not operate it with refunds? if the project isnt funded or doesnt complete refund everyone.
17:47:35 <jwinterm> kinghat[m], I think logistics that no one wants to deal with
17:47:41 <rehrar> for the time being, I don't think we have active researchers doing stuff, but I think with the atomic swaps and stuff, we have a fair amount of R&D going on for a bit.
17:47:55 <rehrar> but yes, it would be cool to attract someone new to come take up some sort of position
17:48:12 <rehrar> kinghat[m]: we are doing a trial period of refunds with the atomic swaps proposal
17:48:24 <kinghat[m]> <jwinterm "kinghat, I think logistics that "> that seems solvable?
17:48:55 <rehrar> luigi1111 is going to do refunds manually and we're going to assess afterwards how much of a workload it is and other kinks.
17:49:14 <rehrar> Who knows, if it goes super smoothly, then perhaps it will be implemented across the whole thing. But I don't want to get ahead of myself here.
17:49:30 <lederstrumpf> if it comes to refunds ;)
17:49:36 <rehrar> lederstrumpf: correct
17:50:07 <rehrar> but even if it doesn't come to refunds, the collection of addresses and potential claims have to be processed regardless
17:50:10 <TheCharlatan> I'm a bit worried that the reserach now and for the next few months appears to be more on the application side instead of giving answers towards the future of the protocol.
17:50:10 <kinghat[m]> nice. i mean refunds could be manually initiated via a "refund" button but the actual refunds could be automated?
17:50:57 <rehrar> TheCharlatan: here's an interesting thought. What if there was a mathematician that was interested but not experienced. Say a grad student. Do you think the community would be ok with paying a small salary while they catch up and get up to snuff?
17:51:05 <lederstrumpf> rehrar: true, that learning experience comes regardless of whether or not refunds will be necessary
17:51:17 <rehrar> otherwise we're stuck with people that already know what their stuff, which is going to decrease the pool considerably.
17:51:44 <rehrar> but someone who is ok with being 'trained' and so they can start contributing in this way opens us up quite a bit
17:52:15 <nioc> hopefully sarang gets bored soon
17:53:01 <TheCharlatan> rehrar I feel like that's the only way forward. The amount of knowledge required to do informed research on this has grown significantly.
17:53:25 <rehrar> Perhaps we should start with word of mouth then.
17:53:48 <rehrar> Some of us probably know some people. Math people. Just talking to them about such a position might be good.
17:53:50 <TheCharlatan> Just reading the literature on monero since its inception would already take significant time.
17:53:56 <rehrar> Because we can fill in the gaps about paying people for three years.
17:54:17 <rehrar> so they might stay and listen as opposed to walk away immediately
17:55:35 <rehrar> does anyone else have an opinion on a potential "trainee"?
17:55:57 <rehrar> I myself know a few different math grad students that might be interested if the learning portion of the position was compensated.
17:57:27 <TheCharlatan> sounds good to me
17:58:34 <rehrar> I'll talk with core about this possibility.
17:58:39 <rehrar> Thanks for bringing this up TheCharlatan.
17:58:51 <rehrar> We're approaching end of time here, so I think we can safely call it here.
17:59:02 <rehrar> Anyone who wants to continue any discussions can of course do so, as the room is free after the meeting.
17:59:08 <rehrar> Thanks for coming everyone!
17:59:33 <nioc> ty rehrar
18:00:20 <h4sh3d[m]> thanks
18:01:09 <TheCharlatan> ty
18:02:53 <lederstrumpf> ty
18:33:30 <xmrscott[m]> FWIW it's worth, it might be worthwhile coming up with some sort of general full time heads count (e.g. two) for MRL, and then when one leaves, community proactively work to backfill it to avoid losing too much tribal knowledge, etc
20:48:55 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> Speaking of making sure progress is not stalled, are we anywhere near being able to plan/fund an audit of a Triptych/Arcturus implemented?
20:49:07 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> Or producing an implemented for that matter
21:36:29 <rehrar> cankerwort, I don't know. To me it still seems a bit too young. Needs time to just exist.