03:18:08 Particl's xmrswap repository: https://github.com/tecnovert/xmrswap/ 03:20:07 if this is legit, does it change cost of atomic swap CCS? 03:59:00 is it legit? I see some doubt about the trustworthyness of the Particl team 04:14:22 the current showrunners of particl have their hearts in the right place, but I think are quite deluded into the feasibility of their product 06:22:20 Did anyone look at other major cryptocurrencies as to the feasability of using the same atomic swap fucntionality as is proposed for xmrbtc? I would expect LTC and ETH to be able to support similar semantics for example? 07:05:57 Who would even want to swap their perfectly fungibly XMR to potentially tainted BTC/LTC/ETH? 07:14:13 sarang i really love all you have already done for the monero project, its sad to hear your news but first and foremost is your health so i hope you can charge back up and we can welcome you back soon (tm) 07:51:54 I just opened my CCS proposal for the next 3 months. It's the same as the last one: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/175 07:52:26 please leave a comment or express your vote using the thumb up or the thumb down 10:55:48 UkoeHB_ fwiw they are using a python ed25519 library in their implementation that has timing side channels. 11:37:39 with regards to working for MRL, and being a citizen of the USA, how much does the lack of bundled healthcare insurance play a role in terms of added difficulty/stress? I grew up in Europe, with a national health service that can be relied upon in terms of emergencies and basic illness. So my understanding of the US healthcare system is limited. 11:39:20 Presumably a US citizen would have to pay for their healthcare plan privately out of their research funding. Whereas if they were employed by a large company, it would be provided (often?) in addition to their monthly salary. 11:41:27 Is it as simple as healthcare being an added monthly cost. Or, does one actually lose out in terms of healthcare plans by being self employed. I.e. company healthcare plans are typically better than private ones? 12:11:02 Often employees also must pay some of the healthcare premium in addition to an employer subsidy 12:11:23 and that is in addition to copays, deductibles, coinsurance, etc., and of course care that is not covered by the health plan 12:11:30 which can be surprising and unexpected 12:12:09 But for self-employed people, they must find their own health plan and pay out of pocket, and it's often quite a lot more expensive because there is no employer paying part of the premium 12:12:32 The healthcare system in the United States is an absolute joke 12:19:21 Thanks for explaining. Ok, that was what I suspected - self-employed healthcare having the potential to work out more expensive. So then in addition to monthly bill like rent/mortgage, utilities and food - one has to factor in continued affordance of the existing healthcare plan - in a situation where community funding dries up. Presumably this is just par for the course as an American, but as 12:19:27 an outsider, it's a piece of the puzzle I hadn't factored in by default. 12:20:00 Well, even if you have a more traditional job, you still need to budget for possibly expensive healthcare 12:20:17 The premium often isn't even _close_ to the amount you still need to pay out of pocket for healthcare 12:20:53 There are some options for people who are unemployed, but it can be exceptionally difficult to access this under such circumstances 12:23:01 Crazy system. If you have money, you can afford to survive. Otherwise, good luck to you. 12:23:08 To say the system is complicated would be a massive understatement 12:23:38 It's not just complicated. It's an insult to human dignity. 12:23:51 I was in a cycling accident a while back (hit by a car) and good heavens, the number of hours of mindless paperwork and phone calls I had to do because of a single emergency room visit was just absurd 12:24:25 It went through at least two insurance companies and a state insurance organization, as well all the separate healthcare providers during that single visit 12:26:21 I had to refuse an ambulance multiple times because it would have cost hundreds of dollars 12:26:51 They offered to send a fire truck to have a fire serviceperson do a quick examination, and even then I had to ask multiple times if I'd be charged for this 12:26:56 Juxtapose that with national healthcare systems of other countries, where for emergency room visits there is essentially zero paperwork done by you, the user. For sure, national healthcare systems are full of faults, but paperwork is not one of them (at least of the ones I'm aware of) 12:26:56 (the answer was no, fortunately) 12:27:19 I ended up having a police officer drive me to the emergency room in his patrol car 12:27:28 again, after asking multiple times if I'd be charged for the service 12:27:32 If your employer is paying for healthcare... they are still paying it out of your ‘nominal salary’. It’s similar in so-called universal plans where payment comes out of taxes. Can’t avoid paying. Not that the various systems aren’t all completely doomed. 12:27:40 Wow. Absurd 12:28:08 "Healthcare bankruptcy" is absolutely a thing in the United States 12:28:30 Sure, if your employer subsidizes your premiums, it's factored in to the total value of your benefits 12:29:03 But there are also tax implications for how the premium is paid 12:29:13 Hence doomed 12:29:16 e.g. if you're self-employed, you can deduct your premium under some circumstances 12:29:29 if you're not, you can't deduct that if you use standard deductions 12:29:43 UkoeHB_: Even if payment comes out of taxes in some universal healthcare system, the amount of taxes is nowhere close to the money you would pay in the US. Beside, in Italy, if you have a very law or non existent salary, you don't pay even those taxes 12:30:48 I could complain about italy for days, but at least healthcare is assured to everybody. Maximum i remember i have paid for emergency situation was 14 euros, but that happened only once 12:32:16 There are ‘hidden taxes’ consequent of the overall economic burden on the production structure. Universal plans have other problems though even if they consume less dollars. Rationing, for example, since economic calculation is impossible for allocating resources without a high fidelity feedback mechanism 12:33:04 Well, I can tell you for an emergency room visit consisting of a few x-rays and an examination by a doctor, the total cost was something like $3000 12:33:44 For some ungodly reason, part of it ended up being paid by my auto insurance company 12:34:06 Auto accident? There were wheels :p 12:34:09 the rest was billed to the driver's auto insurance, but since her coverage was subpar, apparently the state insurance pool paid it 12:34:31 What's crazy is that apparently none of it was actually paid for by my health insurance company _at all_ 12:34:34 It's just nuts 12:35:40 At least we can all rest assured every system will continue to get worse at a measured pace :) 12:36:05 Clearly there are degrees of badness here 12:36:31 I call them flavors of badness 12:36:37 Trying to treat health care as a free market makes no sense 12:36:56 For example ‘ew’, ‘eW, and ‘Ew’ 12:37:41 Free market is mostly a misnomer, the us system is highly regulated and protected from the market in various ways 12:40:13 lol 12:40:14 You could say the high prices observed come from the will of free market participants squeezed into a monopolistic structure 12:40:18 have you ever seen a healthcare bill 12:40:36 You can't determine how much your care will cost until months after you receive it 12:40:44 You can ask, and they will not tell you 12:41:06 Yes, and at Amazon all the prices are pasted on everything 12:41:12 You often can't even determine if your providers are all even covered by your insurance 12:41:38 You can be the best-informed healthcare consumer in the country, and you still can't make properly-informed decisions about your own care 12:43:29 Most of the direct prices are encapsulated by insurance, so premiums are a proxy for healthcare costs 12:44:02 But you can't even determine the covered prices 12:44:06 those are proprietary 12:44:16 Yes it’s quite doomed 12:45:10 I was optimistic when that Bezos/Buffet/Dimon organisation "Haven Healthcare" was proposed, but it seems they haven't made any progress yet in improving things 12:45:36 (at least from what I've read) 13:04:24 binaries for CLI 0.17.0.1 are out on getmonero.org 14:51:08 https://reason.com/2020/09/29/the-fincenfiles-shine-a-spotlight-on-how-banks-are-ordered-to-snoop-on-you/ 15:18:29 Good article 15:41:49 wowario[m]: It's in Python. There's already a working PoC in Rust which was discussed in the proposal. 15:42:21 oic 15:42:43 Inge-: BTC is replaceable with LTC/ETH, but not BCH. It requires being able to chain TXs, and BTC codebases can only support that with SW. ETH's SCs remove that need thanks to the more complicated logic available. 15:43:14 XMR is also replaceable with other coins as well, such as MR/NANO/GRIN 15:44:41 Ouch :( You have to run their CLI tool with each command 15:45:06 Like every prepare message/publish tx... 15:49:23 Research report is available: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/j2oncd/september_monthly_report_from_sarang_noether/ 15:49:24 [REDDIT] September monthly report from Sarang Noether (self.Monero) | 1 points (100.0%) | 1 comments | Posted by SarangNoether | Created at 2020-09-30 - 15:48:27 15:49:28 good bot 16:06:48 https://cointelegraph.com/news/chainalysis-and-texas-firm-win-million-dollar-irs-contract-to-crack-monero 16:07:21 So now it's time for Chainanalys to try "Crack" Monero 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️ 16:10:21 Not entirely sure what 'awarded' entails here 16:10:31 Does it mean the grant was awarded to develop a tool, or that a tool was already developed? 16:10:47 * dEBRUYNE ponderes if anyone has insight into government grants 16:10:54 Probably just a contract to develop 16:11:49 Given that 22 firms applied, it is probably the former, yes 16:22:52 I have many issues with CoinTelegraph's reporting, but kudos to them for fixing their earlier article about that Monero payment ID (and noting it in the linked Chainalysis-related article) 16:23:06 I had emailed the reporter about it, and perhaps others did too 16:23:15 but what about Ciphertrace? 16:23:22 What about them? 16:23:28 DHS != IRS 16:23:35 Didn't they crack Monero already? 16:23:52 They said... many things 16:24:38 The term tracing also shouldn't be seen as binary 16:25:04 Because, in effect, you can claim that you can trace something, even if it only relates to a specific (negligible) subset of the total amount of transactions 16:25:06 My opinion on that hasn't changed. I don't think they uncovered anything fundamentally new, but are using external information, targeted transactions, and statistical analysis to try and build likelihoods for transaction linking and graph analysis 16:25:15 Or at least, _could_ be doing this 16:25:23 They haven't demonstrated or provided evidence of _anything_ 16:25:39 'trust us' :p 16:25:55 dEBRUYNE: sure; all the provided was a press release, which is worth precisely nothing on its own 16:26:01 s/the/they 16:26:01 sarang meant to say: dEBRUYNE: sure; all they provided was a press release, which is worth precisely nothing on its own 16:26:21 However, I think the idea that someone _could_ be using such known techniques should be taken seriously 16:26:27 Regardless of whether or not anyone actually has 16:26:55 Oh, they did provide a random screenshot of a graph on reddit too =p 16:26:57 Definitely, we should remain vigilant 16:27:00 can't fake that :D 16:27:03 Haha 16:27:18 yo, sorry, left my home so I'm missing any above messages since my last message 16:27:38 Triptych (if implemented) will fortunately alleviate (or strengthen, depending on the view) some of the weaknesses 16:27:58 I've come to assume that Dave Jevans intended that interview to be PR, but was taken aback by the level of detail in the questions (but this is only my assumption) 16:28:07 I do not regret asking at the level of detail that I did 16:28:25 It is warranted, imo 16:28:29 Triptych/Arcturus would weaken the usefulness of their statistics, sure 16:28:33 About Particl: They seem to have the proper cryptography, even using rfc 6979. That said, they also have a dleq test which just prints dleq() and then done... 16:28:51 Oh, the DL equality proof? 16:29:25 I'll give my usual annoying reminder: that hasn't been formally proven, though I'm confident in its security if implemented properly 16:29:33 Yeah. No idea on if it's done correctly. just saying they tried the proper algorithm 16:29:37 ok 16:30:01 It's just a cross-group ring signature that's similar to how Borromean range proofs work 16:30:12 sarang: Thanks for warning us about using experimental technology in our experimental protocol :p 16:30:15 It should receive more formal treatment before being deployed anywhere 16:30:36 Heh, I didn't mean to sound patronizing... sorry if it came across that way 16:30:46 I just want to be super duper clear about this kind of stuff :/ 16:31:01 Nah, all good :) I appreciate it 16:31:11 especially since Particl did... this 16:31:34 Nothing wrong with building interesting things as experiments, as long as that's communicated clearly 16:31:37 a python implementation where you manually do every command/file transfer 16:31:44 True 16:31:53 I noted some worry about being constant-time... 16:32:10 keep in mind that plenty of Monero code isn't constant time 16:32:31 I'm still of the opinion that for most purposes, if you have to worry about this, you're probably screwed anyway 16:32:33 I actually would appreciate another impl, don't get me wrong. I just think this is worthlesd unless they say it's to demonstrate/verify cryptographic accuracy 16:33:00 That being said, constant-time implementations are an excellent goal to have 16:33:51 I think our cryptographic libs are constant. no idea about our dleq proof. depends on branching 16:34:08 Our == ?? 16:35:43 I don't know the algorithm at all :p I know it uses ring signatures and my very talented partner implemented it and it returns true when we use it 16:35:56 heh ok 16:36:16 But I also know enough to say any if check/match statements break constant time without work around them 16:36:55 So if our impl has any... I don't think we made them constant time. dalek should be though, so our elliptic operations should be 16:37:25 Is there a particular concern about variable-time operations in this use case? 16:37:42 If you're worried about side channels on a local machine, that seems to indicate you have bigger problems... 16:37:45 IMO at least... 16:38:16 Def agree, and not at all. just commenting as it's a good goal 16:39:05 got it 17:10:27 https://twitter.com/cmsholdings/status/1311326285214384129 17:10:29 lol 17:12:47 Zcash or Tcash? 17:12:52 lol 17:13:01 For real, I'm curious 17:13:17 I think referring to them by distinct names helps to communicate that they are fundamentally different 17:13:22 and that transitioning between them has risk 17:13:43 Thinking of them as different assets with a built-in exchange is useful in my mind 17:14:43 fluffypony: When wXMR though 17:14:57 lol dEBRUYNE 17:15:18 the only wrapped XMR you'll be able to buy is me spitting rhymes to a sick hip-hop beat 17:15:35 when will that be? 17:16:29 lol 17:16:38 when I issue it as an NFT on ETH 17:16:47 right around the time ETH 2.0 launches 17:17:12 will there be interpretive dance also? 17:17:39 fluffypony: Hah, looking forward to that :D 17:18:50 lza_menace: NATURALLY 17:18:56 excellent 17:19:02 looking forward to this vid 17:19:11 fluffypony: https://twitter.com/IamNomad/status/1311348199991451648 17:19:25 lol 17:20:36 sgp_: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/j2qel2/chainalysis_and_integra_fec_have_won_the_recent/ 17:20:37 [REDDIT] Chainalysis and Integra FEC have won the recent IRS $625,000 contract related to Monero (https://beta.sam.gov/opp/5ab94eae1a8d422e88945b64181c6018/view) to r/Monero | 1 points (100.0%) | 0 comments | Posted by SamsungGalaxyPlayer | Created at 2020-09-30 - 17:18:28 17:20:52 Perhaps you can add that it is probably -> 'the grant was awarded to develop a tool' 17:21:01 I suppose I could type the comment myself 17:21:30 fair, I made the assumption people would know or just look at the contract haha 17:23:44 sgp_: Only took two minutes :-P https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/j2qel2/chainalysis_and_integra_fec_have_won_the_recent/g76y0e4/ 17:24:53 lol, reposting before it gets worse 17:26:09 "Chainalysis and Integra FEC have won the recent IRS $625,000 contract for a pilot Monero tracing tool" 17:26:13 dEBRUYNE: ^? 17:27:34 What's wrong with that headline? It sounds accurate 17:27:49 They have a contract to build a tool 17:28:08 Similar to what CipherTrace did for DHS (but did not publicly demonstrate) 17:28:57 Sounds OK to me 17:29:08 We need to clarify that it is probably a grant provided to build a tool 17:29:13 Not a grant provided because the tool was already built 17:29:35 dEBRUYNE: https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/j2qm42/chainalysis_and_integra_fec_have_won_the_recent/? 17:29:37 That also sounds correct 17:30:06 ty 17:37:59 kayabaNerve: cooø thanks. 17:46:46 For anyone who is interested, the stagenet hard fork happens today: https://community.xmr.to/xmr-countdown/stagenet/ 17:46:54 dEBRUYNE sarang sgp_: so $625K to implement parts of Breaking Monero - sounds like easy money 🤣 17:47:13 * binaryFate preparing stagenet champagne 17:47:17 heh 17:47:21 right 17:47:42 I'd be very surprised if someone managed to invent some new graph theory for this purpose... 17:50:27 lol 18:01:38 MRL should just apply for these grants lol 18:01:59 no thanks 18:02:20 That kind of paperwork sounds unnecessarily irritating and wasteful 18:05:33 Stagenet hard fork completed. 18:06:41 Who is running https://stagenet.xmrchain.net/ by the way? Does anyone know? 18:08:37 gingeropolous I believe 18:13:24 What's this about wrapped XMR and popping beats n' rhymes? 18:15:34 rehrar luigi1111 luigi1111w etc: my current WIP CCS proposal is now complete and can presumably be closed 18:16:06 sarang: you got it sir. 18:16:26 Midi: wrap. now try with silent w. now add some rythms 18:16:32 midipoet: ^ 18:16:41 thanks rehrar 18:17:49 Inge-: very good. 18:20:00 So, uh, if ciphertrace totally has a working tool, why didnt they get the grant 👀 18:20:24 Anyone want to help me understand this one? :) 18:20:31 sgp_: Btw, it is also interesting that CT wasn't awarded the grant 18:20:38 Did they apply? 18:20:45 Beat you to it debruyne 18:20:49 * sarang has not read the government posting 18:20:54 Sarang: if they had a tool, why wouldn't they apply 18:20:58 It's free real estate 18:21:16 I mean, I would 18:21:23 But perhaps there's some rule about non-compete? 18:21:26 Or they didn't see it? 18:21:28 etc. 18:21:40 Or they didn't see it? <= I have a hard time believing that lol 18:21:44 Especially after all the press 18:21:50 who knows 18:21:55 businesses gonna business 18:22:05 governments gonna govern 18:43:38 XMR.to is sponsoring HCPP again, and hence we can have a physical booth there. But none of our team will be there. Is anyone from the community going there who can bring sufficient Monero material (stickers, books, swag, whatever) so we can fill the table and make use of it? Otherwise we cancel booth 18:44:56 As usual we're willing to make it a Monero table, not an xmr.to table. But it's unclear how we do that this time 20:15:00 oh sheet xmr moonin 🌕️ 20:20:25 .barolo 20:20:25 I just opened a 2004 barolo in your and all the devs honor -- https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-JvdfsIeb-s/hqdefault.jpg 21:45:41 mergerfs project added an xmr address: https://github.com/trapexit/mergerfs/commit/badf7e1c60fe0f4321913459d66cc6dcef089231 21:48:16 what'd i do now nioc 21:48:22 does that need updating? 21:51:54 normo asked but I don't know why 21:52:11 gingeropolous: ^^