07:44:57 My understanding is that the law firm that made it, is waiting on a publication to get confirmation on what date it will be published, and that it will not be made publicly available until after that date. Please correct me if wrong. 09:14:15 yes that's where it's at 09:14:20 they're waiting on publication dates 09:14:35 if it takes too long to publish then they'll release it separately 13:02:55 Good Morning Guys!! Some news whith FUD? 13:02:56 https://cointelegraph.com/news/ciphertrace-develops-monero-tracing-tool-to-aid-us-dhs-investigations 13:04:42 I'd go with the U (uncertainty), since there are precisely zero details and zero evidence on their methods or success 13:05:00 And without external information, it is not possible to match transactions/outputs with addresses, mathematically 13:10:24 official press release https://ciphertrace.com/ciphertrace-announces-worlds-first-monero-tracing-capabilities/ 13:10:34 The proof of the pudding is in the eating 13:10:37 > There is much work still to be done, but CipherTrace is proud to announce the world’s first Monero tracing capability 13:10:48 really vague, probably basic tracing with exchange data 13:11:05 They could have some heuristics e.g. Knaccc/EABE related stuff? 13:11:59 Do you consider that if they have developed a tool to exploit a vulnerability and trace Monero, ¿it would be disclosed? 13:12:24 IMO really unlikely that they are using some novel method. 13:12:48 I would personally be very surprised if they were using novel methods in their new tools 13:13:18 I would also be exceptionally surprised if such methods were _broadly_ applicable to _modern_ transactions 13:15:01 and I am always suspect of technical claims without evidence by companies who profit from belief in those claims 13:15:58 if it's knaccc/EABE then we can expect more exchange listings, not delistings. Because exchanges are needed for this to work, right? 13:16:22 Almost certainly 13:16:27 Good point 13:16:31 lol 13:16:37 😅 13:16:51 The alternative might be that try to build statistical models without external data, which probably leads to absurd results that one hopes aren't blindly accepted by exchanges et al. 13:17:06 provably absurd results sounds like fun 13:17:11 For example, "your deposit transaction contains a decoy identified in previous bad activity, so we label it high risk" 13:17:39 Absurd results would be absurd, but if entities accept those results, it screws people over 13:18:59 Understand, something like depositing BTC after CJ . Is a risk 13:20:48 Maybe they flag all monero transactions as high risk :D 13:20:56 Lovera[m]: it's not the same thing though 13:21:14 With CoinJoins, you can guarantee that everyone in that transaction actively participated 13:21:22 This is not the case with the Monero protocol 13:21:35 Anyway, this CipherTrace thing is a press release 13:22:52 I think it is very suspect to conclude from it that (a) they have developed any novel methods; (b) that their tools are broadly applicable to modern transactions; (c) that they can accomplish anything of value without fairly significant external information like exchange KYC and records; and (d) that they can perform anything like address linking without such data 13:23:15 If anything, this reinforces earlier work on the risks imposed by exchange interaction 13:23:24 that was done in this and other communities 13:23:49 its exciting to be able to honestly say that we likely already know about any methods used here 13:23:58 Thankful for all those who have done the work to get us to this point 13:24:00 yeah they need exchange information to know something useful. but isn't that the case with tracing bitcoin txs too? 13:25:00 Anyway, I think the best conclusion is that this is press-release journalism until any other evidence or details are presented 13:25:16 Anything beyond this is speculation, and if done in media with claims of correctness, is wildly irresponsible 13:25:40 We have years of preprints, papers, data, and discussion on _actual_ methods and tools available to everyone, including CipherTrace 13:25:41 maybe all they need is for criminals to think monero is traceable, and then problem solved :) 13:25:49 Well, they want to sell their tools 13:25:55 end of story 13:30:29 sarang: do you think you could write a small text up as a response? 13:30:48 The gist would basically be what seth has tweeted recently 13:30:57 That without evidence or details, there is nothing to discuss or debate 13:31:10 We build the protocol under the assumption that people already use the tools and methods we devise 13:32:26 ok, didn’t see his tweets 13:32:33 and the Monero and academic communities have spent years researching and discussing circumstances (far deeper than just at the level CipherTrace would be able to examine) and conditions under which effective privacy is reduced 13:32:36 This is true... 13:32:49 However, just because these circumstances and conditions exist does NOT mean they generalize broadly 13:33:07 You can use any tool unsafely, whether intentionally or not 13:33:33 But just because some people hit their thumbs with hammers does not mean you should report that all hammer use is unsafe and dangerous in practice 13:33:36 https://twitter.com/sethisimmons/status/1300421153832554497?s=21 13:33:43 Please give feedback if something could be more well written/worded 13:33:50 However, if you ran an anti-hammer company, I'm sure your press release would claim this :) 13:35:36 Thanks Seth for Tweet, im going to RT and traslate into Spanish... i think is a good response 13:35:44 Awesome, thanks :) 13:36:01 sethsimmons: your reference to #monero-research-lab on twitter could require a hint that it is on Freenode IRC ... 13:36:19 True Ill add that 13:36:40 "If only there were people to contact with technical questions about claims relating to cryptography... unfortunately, no such people exist..." 13:36:56 I'm super surprised they didn't ask anyone with a technical background about this 13:37:03 Maybe I should not be surprised :( 13:37:21 I mean, seriously, concluding super broad technical things from a press release just makes me angry 13:37:37 "Monero puts out press release saying CipherTrace is full of it" 13:37:39 It feels kind of disingenuous to release a tool without releasing any of the specifics 13:37:40 ^ what now, press? 13:37:51 dEBRUYNE: not really; they're a company 13:37:56 Sure, but still 13:38:02 What if in the background it is merely a coin toss 13:38:09 I am exaggerating a bit 13:38:13 What's irresponsible is making ecosystem-wide technical claims from a freaking press release 13:38:51 Sure, present the press release if you want, but _in_context_ and presented as such 13:38:52 it's a commercial ad disguised as journalism 13:38:55 yes 13:39:01 that's shoddy journalism 13:39:06 yep 13:39:16 But is very common in this space since reporters don't seem to have any technical background 13:39:26 which, again, is fine... as long as you get it right 13:39:52 But really, someone should release their own press release saying CipherTrace is full of it unless they give details =p 13:39:59 (kidding, kidding...) 13:40:22 Anyway, I'm done giving this nonsense any more of my time 13:40:38 aww, we were just getting started 13:40:38 Time to return to actual open privacy research 13:40:42 what else are we going to discuss? 13:40:52 OK. fair enough 13:41:42 If anyone has technical/research questions, or wants to check the accuracy of claims, mention me or ask in #monero-research-lab 13:41:58 I am more than happy to devote time to accuracy 13:44:11 What about precision? 13:44:12 * Inge- ducks 13:44:35 lol 13:46:00 And feel free to direct interested entities to the Breaking Monero series, where we discuss different specific scenarios where effective privacy _is_ reduced, and try to put them into actual context to show how they are or are not broadly applicable 13:50:11 Lol this guy just followed me: https://twitter.com/R5parrow?s=21 13:50:24 "VP of Attribution at CipherTrace" 13:50:30 Maybe they'll actually reach out now 13:50:38 Maybe that's their tool 13:50:53 secret Twitter follow bot 13:51:22 lol 13:51:24 GOTCHA 13:51:32 ALL YOUR MONERO TRANSACTIONS ARE BELONG TO US 13:51:49 Ask him what your risk score is 13:51:57 XD 14:12:27 sarang: Would you mind leaving a brief comment here? https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/ijyhmq/ciphertrace_claims_it_developed_a_monero_tracing/ 14:15:31 I commented linking to the tweets... 14:16:54 Same :P 14:17:22 yea removed the link again because you linked already :D 14:22:55 commented dEBRUYNE 14:35:59 Thanks 16:19:11 From the CEO: https://twitter.com/davejevans/status/1300466928440324096 16:20:16 I would be very impressed if the CEO had the expertise to appreciate all of the methods that might be involved 16:21:45 "Thanks fluffy. We will give some more details on an interview, but you can appreciate that we cannot disclose all of the methods or the future plans at this time. We reviewed all the Breaking Monero pods as well as all of the published academic research. It's helpful." 16:22:11 Interesting 16:22:20 Wonder who’s doing the interview 16:22:30 So again sounds like they will refuse to prove any capabilities on mainchain 16:22:41 sgp_ did they ever get back to you about a potential interview? 16:23:34 yes they are free the rest of the day really. I need to confirm they will describe the tracing more before agreeing to schedule one 16:23:51 also define "tracing"... 16:24:13 I can think of several things you could define in a press release as "tracing" and be technically correct 16:25:29 https://twitter.com/davejevans/status/1300469062682640390 16:26:06 interesting tweet 16:26:26 No, because it's almost certainly statistical 16:26:30 Idk what that means tbh 16:26:34 Very vague again 16:26:48 This part is worrisome, because it will be easy to claim "accuracy" to their customers/clients 16:27:12 Whereas for stuff like BTC you can say things with certainty: this transaction signed with this key 16:27:50 If the interview ends up being "we can build statistics on transactions" the response is "yeah, and?" 16:27:54 when triptych 16:27:55 We've known this for years 16:28:13 Triptych doesn't stop the ability of companies to take complex statistics and claim things to people who pay you 16:28:17 You're looking at the tweet too narrowly. He also shared our response 16:28:22 A tool can spit out whatever it wants 16:28:27 We developed a graph+explorer for all the pre-2017 tx based on the Monero Leaks dataset (or whatever it was called). Checkmate Monero. 16:28:39 True 16:28:50 right, but triptych will make their statistics more uncertain, which can be good and bad 16:28:51 sgp_: you'll excuse my cynicism here... they're trying to sell a product with a vague press release 16:29:09 If they're legitimately being open about this, great; I look forward to it 16:29:25 But I am setting my expectations based on how they've approached it so far 16:30:04 Proprietary Statistics and Ranking Algorithms (tm) would not be helpful, for example, either to the research community or to their customers 16:30:10 who should not be expected to be experts in this 16:30:23 If the customers are to rely on CipherTrace to be these experts, they need to demonstrate it IMO 16:31:00 👏 16:31:19 Anyway, I look forward to my cynicism being proven wrong 16:38:04 Anyone want to post the txid of a random test transaction for CipherTrace to be presented? 16:38:55 I doubt that they will prove anything. 16:39:07 No, but it's a good move to ask them to 16:39:35 too late to give them the tracing challenge, but that would be a good demo 16:39:38 They can PR all they want about tools, but getting the output of those tools speaks far louder 16:39:44 Why too late? 16:39:50 Does the tool turn into a pumpkin at midnight? 16:40:00 well, too late for an interview today probably 16:40:03 I will donate $100 to the charity of their choice to compensate them for their time 16:40:05 but I can check 16:42:22 Also, it's not a "tracing challenge", but a way to encourage details on what exactly they claim to provide with their tool 16:43:30 Otherwise everyone is chasing their own tails not talking about any details on anything, which is a waste of everyone's time 16:44:13 emailed them again 16:47:07 https://reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/ijyhmq/_/g3hd4uu/ 16:47:08 [REDDIT] Ciphertrace Claims it Developed a Monero Tracing Tool, I say it’s speculation as they provided no proof of their work (https://cointelegraph.com/news/ciphertrace-develops-monero-tracing-tool-to-aid-us-dhs-investigations) to r/Monero | 30 points (94.0%) | 27 comments | Posted by fellowcitzen | Created at 2020-08-31 - 14:00:26 16:47:10 here are some details 16:47:25 was removed 16:47:30 will repost 16:48:07 https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/fpZwwSsF/ 16:48:52 "decoy removal" can mean anything 16:49:10 He also claimed that MimbleWimble has worse privacy than Monero: https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/ijzj17/ciphertrace_develops_monerotracing_tool_to_aid_us/g3hg9eq/ 16:49:11 [REDDIT] CipherTrace develops Monero-tracing tool to aid US DHS investigations (https://cointelegraph.com/news/ciphertrace-develops-monero-tracing-tool-to-aid-us-dhs-investigations) to r/CryptoCurrency | 0 points (50.0%) | 7 comments | Posted by jwinterm | Created at 2020-08-31 - 14:59:03 16:49:14 which is not exactly news 16:49:32 he also posted a tracing example, but it requires mod approval 16:49:34 dEBRUYNE: ^^ 16:49:35 Lol he used half of the comment to insult, nice 16:49:53 also not sure if this is a legit account 16:50:39 I can verify 16:50:44 dEBRUYNE needmoney90: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/ik0t3h/ciphertrace_monero_tracing_example/ 16:50:45 [REDDIT] CipherTrace Monero tracing example (self.Monero) | 1 points (100.0%) | 0 comments | Posted by CipherTrace-Dave | Created at 2020-08-31 - 16:07:22 16:51:09 waiting approval? 16:51:16 new account gets blocked by automod 16:54:03 Decoy removal? This is too vague description. 16:55:08 OK so 16:55:14 This has _nothing_ to do with linking to addresses 16:55:17 not even close 16:55:31 Lol 16:55:35 that requires external information, known spends to listed addresses, or breaking mathematics in a fascinating way 16:55:49 We have published tools on "decoy removal", and methods and math on this, for years 16:55:56 If they packaged it into a fancy tool, cool 16:56:07 That research is all open, and we don't get to decide how math is used 16:56:19 I stand by my earlier assertions on what this probably is 16:56:42 and by my fear that this will be presented to customers/clients as some kind of yes/no risk tool, when really it's a fuzzy-wuzzy statistical cloud 16:57:00 Kudos to Dave for providing _any_ details, for sure 16:57:13 No fault there 16:57:34 https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/QMT8FRCF/ciphertrace 16:57:48 I mean, if Dave wants a list of all outputs that can be _definitively_ traced, with no stats involved, I can literally email this list to him 16:57:54 I can confirm the UI looks like CipherTrace's other tools 16:57:54 Or give him a Python tool to do it himself 16:58:22 So what, this identifies ring members by source? 16:58:26 this screenshot seems real and realistic 16:58:28 Sure, any explorer can do this 16:58:36 Is there more that I'm not getting here? 16:58:36 though obviously this doesn't show much lol 16:59:22 No, it does not 16:59:30 To be fair, I assume their customers dont' _want_ much detail 16:59:33 so it’s a visual block explorer? like fluffy said? lol 16:59:35 They want "risk" 16:59:45 I'm trying to figure out where they are making attributions between outputs and addresses/users 16:59:47 So customers shouldn't be expected to want deep information... 16:59:59 If this is just labeling outputs, that's like... a database 17:00:02 and a block explorer 17:00:07 and a frontend 17:00:10 Is there more here? 17:00:14 Or I am just going insane? 17:00:15 Or both? 17:00:25 looks like a visual block explorer? 17:01:08 if it's easy to use it's a cool tool, but hardly shows/proves much 17:01:35 Lol at all mixins being tagged “mixer” in the legend 17:01:46 Says nothing about how they are deducing true spend from the decoys 17:01:54 That could be a completely false trace for all we know 17:02:05 But maybe someone else can make more sense of it 17:02:10 I'm not 100% sure that's how it works, would be odd if the others were ATM 17:02:38 Can't they just create a risk score for each key image? 17:03:02 they're not "deducing" true spend, they can only estimate probabilities 17:03:11 Sure 17:03:18 But that's essentially risk assessment 17:03:22 Just less accurate 17:03:29 Why are all sends marked as “ATM”? 17:04:18 I am not sure if that's actually what they are marked as 17:04:46 I asked on Reddit for him to explain/walk-through 17:04:56 Because Monero is digital cash, and since ATM's deal with cash 17:05:20 sethsimmons: yeah I wondered that as well. Maybe they have all the ATM info (hence all outputs from ATMs) 17:05:38 That is actually a pretty good example of a potential privacy leak 17:05:58 sgp_: there is a colour key... 17:06:06 You don't think that's accurate? 17:06:32 I guess I would be surprised if it was an ATM example 17:07:33 Seems like they're implying they can trace from DNM to ATM in this graph 17:07:34 And I think they are just coding unknown outputs as "mixer" 17:07:54 so it might be EABE attack using data (known outputs) from ATMs 17:07:56 Even "known" are marked as mixer lol 17:08:06 sech1: that's my guess, yes 17:08:42 I think we're reading it wrong -- I don't think the arrows are covered by the legend 17:08:47 How many ATM software/hardwares are there? 17:08:47 Only the dots/highlighting 17:08:50 Not many right? 17:09:04 The initial sets of inputs have one black (DNM) and one white (unknown) input flagged 17:09:26 Then there is a highlighted green output (ATM)? 17:09:31 The LEAs could also have fake ads on DNMs 17:09:36 That would give them additional data 17:10:02 Not sure how else they could say these originated from DNM 17:10:28 Confiscated accounts? Arrests? 17:11:10 I think this is just an example of the interface. 17:11:18 Well if they own this accounts keys its not really tracing :P 17:12:02 "sgp_" (https://matrix.to/#/@freenode_sgp_:matrix.org): Legend is supposed to be applied to arrows or addresses/circles? 17:12:26 sethsimmons: no, but it's another set of known "risky" outputs 17:12:37 xmrscott[m]: exactly I don't know 17:12:48 I would say all 17:12:59 Makes no sense to use the same colour otherwise 17:13:06 I think orange arrows are inputs, green are outputs 17:13:17 I don't think the arrows have a legen/apply to the given legend 17:14:17 What I don't understand is the way each transaction is depicted -- is the pentagon a key image, and the square a transaction? It's all so confusing 17:14:31 i'm saying it's a visual block explorer and an api-ready framework for all exchanges/etc to connect to, enforced by LEAs 17:16:07 That wouldn't be of any use for the specified purpose of tracing Monero, though 17:16:18 Since it wouldn't even help in any way to imply a known spend etc. 17:16:21 So if its just a visual block explorer its not interesting 17:16:31 But if it is just that it makes sense why they call it v1 and say they are going to build on it 17:27:46 * needmoney90 rolled over to approve the comments and is only just now coming up to speed 17:27:48 morning :( 17:31:05 needmoney90: good night 17:54:39 hyc: whenever I see your name mentioned on the internet i just forward it to you :-P https://lobste.rs/s/m9vkg4/database_i_wish_i_had#c_askorb 18:00:53 sgp_ You sent the tracing challenge to ciphertrace right? 18:01:00 Have they gotten back to you with any response? 18:01:12 They have a fancy tool that does it, so it should be a cinch 18:01:41 Oh that would be a great test :D 18:01:54 Forgot sgp_ sent them that before we knew about all of this lol 18:02:14 needmoney90: yes I sent it their way 18:02:47 That's where they got the idea ;-) 18:02:57 Two weeks later, product released!! 18:03:18 XD 18:03:27 stranger things have happened 18:03:33 Lets have them on Monero Space for a chat and have them walk us through how they beat the challenge ;) 18:03:54 There's a gimme in there, an EAE, they should at least get that one 18:04:19 literally only one path in the whole set, its a process of elimination thing 18:04:42 What's the attack when you run a load of nodes? 18:05:04 you're able to tell who sent the initial tx, at least before i2p/dandelion 18:05:11 so you record id/tx pairs 18:05:19 Or sorry when you create a load of transactions so you know the majority/substantial portion of outputs.. 18:05:19 and can use that to correlate txes 18:05:24 oh, thats a different one 18:05:36 Yeah, sorry. Got confused 18:05:45 Though both are nasty 18:05:52 That's the one we need to look out for 18:05:55 Dont we run dandelion++ default now? 18:06:11 I thought that fixed it 18:07:56 sgp_ Can I get some confirmation dave is dave? 18:08:02 If you can do it sidechannel 18:08:07 Then I can tag him 18:08:42 Just want some independent sidechannel verification, its kind of a foregone conclusion who he is 18:09:14 pinged on Twitter 18:14:44 Sooooo is this trying to use decoy presence in rings to "estimate" the likelihood of being connected to illicit activity? 18:14:56 If so, that's an insane misrepresentation of how non-interactive signatures work 18:15:10 Without any details, I'll assume this is the case :D 18:19:35 * sarang waits for clarification from people in the know... 18:20:53 * needmoney90 wants a cartoon sarang with a wizard hat fighting off fud with math weapons 18:21:29 If all this tool is doing is counting ring members and tagging them in some database, that's... a really bad way to do this 18:21:42 I really hope they're trying to be more clever than that 18:21:52 Otherwise, they're paying someone way too much 18:22:24 there must be two poisioned outputs that they noticed were later spent in the same transaction, so they're doing pretty straightforward stuff here 18:22:38 dear CyberTrack, I sent a morono tx last night while drunk and don't remember who I sent it to. Can you please help me? 18:23:19 knaccc: is that really a realistic way to look at this? 18:23:31 Oh, are they assuming the poison comes from the same transaction too? 18:23:39 If not, this is a simple example of bad sweep 18:23:45 i assume on two separate occasions, they paid the merchant 18:23:51 then later waited for a cashout 18:23:55 Dont those first two txes have *two highlighted txes* in the same ring? 18:23:55 Sure, that's well known 18:24:00 You cant spend two txes in the same ring 18:24:14 yeah it's really well known 18:24:18 Yuuu 18:24:20 Yuuup 18:24:24 they're not doing anything clever at all, but it does work 18:24:24 OK, this is nothing even remotely new 18:24:37 This is just saying you should _at least_ safely churn before merging 18:24:39 bam 18:24:49 I literally am working on an output merging analysis tool now 18:24:54 to examine distributions of this 18:24:55 lol 18:24:57 oh nice 18:25:00 OK 18:25:05 they only got $120k from DHS sarang 18:25:06 This is super enlightening 18:25:07 maybe we should apply for DHS contracts 18:25:17 We jokingly considered it needmoney90 18:25:19 heh 18:25:22 wen SarangTrace 18:25:30 they actually got $1.3M from dept of interior 18:25:32 I was invited to participate in the CipherTrace interview later today 18:25:39 I'll ask about this specifically 18:25:44 and ask if they'd like my toolkit 18:25:49 profits will go to mooonero development 18:25:57 sarang what does your toolkit do 18:26:02 if we're already doing the development why not get paid for it? 18:26:11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 18:26:18 "Monero being paid by government to break its own software!" 18:26:30 knaccc: looks at distributions of merged outputs 18:26:42 if/when we use epochs, this goes away 18:27:00 Er, goes away if done in a temporally close way 18:27:10 Otherwise, if you aren't accepting controlled payments, this analysis is useless 18:27:21 Also: do individual sweeps before spending 18:27:30 bam, this problem is now solved(ish) 18:27:34 sarang oh i see, so for a tx with 2 inputs, it's looking to see how easy it is to guess the real outputs being spent by noticing they were recevied in a comparatively much closer timespan than other outputs 18:27:37 So it’s just a merge of poisoned outputs? 18:27:44 yeah epochs definitely a great idea 18:27:47 sethsimmons: appears so 18:27:52 Lol 18:28:02 knaccc: also depends if the outputs are known to be controlled to the same entity 18:28:05 That explains a lot 18:28:08 e.g. poisoned outputs at multiple spends 18:28:12 nice 18:28:43 knaccc: one version of merging looks purely at source txns, which is my focus 18:29:06 Source txns being separate but known (like in broad ransomware) is mitigated by avoiding multiple sweeps 18:29:26 This isn't even remotely a concern if you aren't pulling evil shit like this 18:29:48 what is the evil sh*t you're referring to? 18:30:15 you mean ransomware? 18:30:30 If you accept multiple flagged outputs in different transactions and later merge them 18:30:38 So summary: two known poisoned outputs are later merged, allowing the poisoner to use a shared ownership heuristic to tie them to the same entity? 18:31:02 The original merge research assumed you were looking at outputs generated in the same txn, but this isn't that common 18:31:08 well if you're selling bibles in china, you can't avoid receiving poisioned outputs. all you can do is later not spend them together 18:31:21 But if you assume the source txns are in some list somewhere (like in a broad ransomware attack), the idea is similar 18:31:27 knaccc: right 18:31:34 Best way to avoid this myself is sweeping individual outputs from potentially tracked sources (like KYC exchanges) before merging at some point later (if needed)? 18:31:43 Yes 18:31:51 This doesn't eliminate all risk, but mitigates it 18:31:52 Thanks 18:31:58 This has been looooong known 18:32:04 Could this be done by default at the wallet level? 18:32:04 NOTE: this is speculation 18:32:19 Yeah for sure this is old as time 18:32:20 We don't know if this is actually what the Fancy Tool does 18:32:27 But it sure sounds like it 18:32:34 the question is: how can monero be designed such that monero users don't need to know all these special rules in order to have untraceability 18:32:47 knaccc: this is the correct question :) 18:32:55 If it is, a simple “right click incoming TX>churn” in GUI would fix in theory 18:33:05 Well, to a point, yes 18:33:20 Since it adds those outputs to a "recent pool" likely to be chosen in many txns 18:33:23 well you'd need to churn more than once, especially if there were more than two poisioned outputs 18:33:24 YES! 18:33:29 ALSO: this Fancy Tool is statistical only 18:33:32 a LOT more than once 18:33:47 knaccc: sure 18:33:57 Maybe “flag for churning” and let the wallet churn based on some profile over time 18:33:57 it moves the analysis down the graph 18:34:15 But it does sound like CT is doing very little broad graph analysis 18:34:22 I'm a bit disappointed :( 18:34:25 haha 18:34:31 I had kinda hoped for more interesting stuff 18:34:37 This is... not interesting 18:34:39 Lol 18:34:41 Useful? Sometimes 18:35:05 haha you're getting annoyed at someone breaking your crypto and it's only a wrench 18:35:18 I mean I suspect they're embarrassed about their tool's capabilities, or they'd be yelling about them 18:35:29 I'll bring it up in the interview 18:35:44