04:21:10 <rehrar> it was then that we saw all of the Element people die
04:58:01 <guests1984> hi. just ask questions.. why getmonero.org use cloudflare?
06:27:53 <xmrscott[m]> guests1984: Cloudflare provides among other things DDoS attack protection
06:49:08 <needmoney90> xmrscott[m]: cloudflare is centralized
06:51:40 <xmrscott[m]> needmoney90: Yeah, but they make a mean marionberry pie so it evens out
07:17:59 <fluffypony> needmoney90: the website is inherently centralised anyway
07:18:15 <fluffypony> and pigeons is working on the Tor site, so anyone who is concerned can use that
09:13:35 <Guest72945> Announcement of October's network upgrade. Please review: https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/pull/1140
09:15:55 * asymptotically refuses to upgrade and will continue to mine on old chain just to make the answer to common question 1 wrong
09:15:58 <asymptotically> Monero Classic 2!!!
09:16:46 <selsta> Guest72945: you can add that the PoW algo does not change
09:17:27 <Guest72945> asymptotically: Lol. That will show me :P
09:17:28 <Guest72945> Nice one selsta
09:23:05 <Guest72945> pushed
09:30:48 <Guest72945> Have to go afk now. Will read later in case
10:19:21 <selsta> left some more minor comments
10:22:38 <asymptotically> selsta: how do you add a suggested change in the review?
10:22:55 <selsta> there is an icon for it
10:23:07 <selsta> ±
10:23:08 <selsta> this one
10:23:24 <asymptotically> oooo, never noticed that before
11:04:41 <Guest72945> Added all suggestions
15:54:18 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> Monero Calendar is live! https://www.monerooutreach.org/monero-calendar
15:54:18 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan>
15:54:19 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> Twitter: https://twitter.com/xmroutreach/status/1295750024412852227
15:54:20 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan>
15:54:22 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/ic3hwi/introducing_the_monero_calendar/
15:54:22 <monerobux> [REDDIT] Introducing the Monero Calendar! (https://www.monerooutreach.org/monero-calendar/) to r/Monero | 1 points (100.0%) | 1 comments | Posted by xmrhaelan | Created at 2020-08-18 - 15:47:54
21:36:19 <xmrscott[m]> xmrhaelan: Pretty awesome! My only comment would be having an ical or some such downloadable
21:43:55 <kayront> read the entry for tomorrow as "Monero reset" and my heart skipped several beats
22:02:46 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> xmrscott that is on the task board
22:06:13 <xmrscott[m]> Excellent!
22:30:30 <intj440> Why has the MCW YT channel been renamed?  https://www.youtube.com/c/monerospace/about
22:30:30 <monerobux> [ Monero Space - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com
22:31:07 <intj440> my understanding of recent events is that this channel is now Core property and thus there wuold be no reason for rebranding it
22:32:39 <intj440> video metadata/statistics such as upload dates, view counts, etc. are within what I understood to be Core property
22:36:04 <sethsimmons> sgp_ just renamed it today, AFAIK, because it belongs to the new workgroup that is shortly to be announced, but will continue to serve the same purposes (and more, likely).
22:37:29 <intj440> how is sgp_ relinquishing leadership of the MCW even remotely compatible with the MCW YT channel now being LLC property?
22:38:18 <selsta> it would be a bit weird if this channel is sgp’s property, the videos are mostly community videos (defcon, ccc, monerokon, community coffee chat, ...)
22:39:17 <sethsimmons> idk that its "LLC property", he can fill in the specifics, but he is the one who created and has run the YT channel since inception
22:41:22 <sgp_> I do not have the exclusive rights to use the content; it is all CC so anyone can host elsewhere
22:42:05 <intj440> again, the metadata/statistics on the videos are irreproducible thus not part of CC
22:42:19 <intj440> those will clearly belong to somebody
22:42:24 <needmoney90> yeah, Justin
22:42:29 <needmoney90> the person who owns the account
22:42:31 <rehrar> Hmmm...things like comments and stuff.
22:43:07 <needmoney90> I don't think centralizing everything under Core is the best idea.
22:43:11 <intj440> so was this announcement of relinquishing leadership of the MCW even meaningful?
22:43:17 <rehrar> Sure, but many people contributed to the YouTube stuff, perhaps on the assumption that it was MCW stuff.
22:43:57 <needmoney90> It was renamed explicitly to divorce it from the -community workgroup. We have appropriated nothing.
22:44:07 <sethsimmons> I would assume if MCW wants to have a YT channel it could be created and videos shared/uploaded to it instead
22:44:08 <rehrar> Similar to not being able to change afoss license workout getting permission of everyone who contributed ( or rewrite those parts)
22:44:19 <sgp_> rehrar: perhaps, but I'm not claiming to have control over Monero Talk because I was a guest. Doug clearly leads that initiative
22:44:34 <rehrar> I can see the argument that many people contributed to the YouTube, and so it may not be able to change ownership without approval of all people who worked on it.
22:44:47 <rehrar> Without*
22:44:50 <sgp_> That's..... No
22:44:53 <needmoney90> That is not how youtube account ownership works.
22:44:58 <needmoney90> The videos are in the commons
22:45:10 <rehrar> The metadata is not?
22:45:12 <sgp_> You are free to rehost the videos anywhere else
22:45:12 <rehrar> Just clarifying.
22:45:24 <needmoney90> It belongs to the account, from youtube's guidelines.
22:45:28 <intj440> "free to rehost" with zero view stats and the appearance of being the "copier"
22:45:35 * needmoney90 shrugs
22:46:15 <needmoney90> I don't think we're really liable for perception here. We've done what we can to divorce our own accounts from this workgroup, because that was the will of the people here.
22:46:23 <rehrar> I mean obviously you can take it since you have the password. But people will feel jipped
22:46:28 <rehrar> Or however you spell that.
22:46:32 <intj440> the recent announcement of relinquishment of MCW leadership, to me, would have suggested that the YT channel named "MCW" would now be Core property and so the very recent rebrand does not seem compatible with the announcement
22:47:09 <needmoney90> We are no longer moderating this channel, or heading initiatives
22:47:10 <xmrscott[m]> <intj440 "so was this announcement of reli"> Yes, and as others have noted who were against the initial proposal, the stepping down (as written here: https://gist.github.com/SamsungGalaxyPlayer/db745ee6b967e91b5318f2db04f4ee2f) was even excessive in their eyes
22:50:57 <needmoney90> I would like to reiterate that I don't really think 'give everything to core' is particularly decentralized either. If you guys are really serious about your "individuals must hold every single thing in our ideal decentralized system", you have to live with the consequences of having individuals hold every single thing in your ideal decentralized ecosystem
22:51:12 <needmoney90> which includes them using it as they see fit
23:02:24 <selsta> sgp_: MoneroTalk is not a workgroup, this is not comparable
23:02:28 <sgp_> Note however that the channel will function the same way as it always has. The MCW is welcome (but not obligated to) host the Coffee Chats there if you want to keep having those, or any other Monero-related content
23:04:12 <sgp_> Obviously putting content there does not mean I have ownership of it. Whoever made the video does. This is just one available place to share related content
23:07:12 <selsta> The channel was called "Monero Community Workgroup" and not "Justin". You stepping down from MCW does not imply that you take ownership of this channel, especially because you said nothing about this in your statement.
23:07:56 <selsta> And no, I don’t care about a youtube channel but this comes off a bit sneaky and in bad faith.
23:07:58 <needmoney90> This would be the case in any situation where an individual owned an account
23:08:19 <needmoney90> And if the name was kept, they would also be lambasted for it.
23:08:26 <needmoney90> We changed the name, as was asked.
23:09:15 <needmoney90> This is one of the inherent issues with having a 'decentralized' group of 'community' accounts owned by individuals.
23:10:43 <needmoney90> We tried to express our concerns with that kind of structure in our mission statement for why we wanted to split ownership of the accounts over multiple people, but it seems the implications of why we wanted to do that weren't very clear.
23:11:05 <needmoney90> This is the exact issue we were attempting to solve (really, have solved)
23:12:32 <needmoney90> Its probably a good thing that you guys are realizing why that system has issues. One solution is to just give everything to core (yet another central entity), but people don't seem to have worries about that
23:22:16 <sethsimmons> Were there any other specific concerns people had about this move? intj440 selsta?
23:22:16 <sethsimmons> I know it’s a bit... weird, but the changes in this workgroup and the new one happening right now are going to make for some growing pains I’m sure.
23:22:16 <sethsimmons> But hopefully we can help to clarify/ease the process.
23:22:55 <selsta> don’t even know what to say lol
23:22:55 <selsta> wtf
23:26:11 <jwinterm> rehrar, just fyi jipped or however you spell it is not PC
23:26:20 <jwinterm> I learned after using it at work a few years ago
23:26:22 <needmoney90> its a reference to gypsies
23:26:25 <jwinterm> right
23:26:26 <needmoney90> I didnt want to bring it up
23:26:37 <selsta> I find this all really tiring
23:26:43 <jwinterm> you're basically saying romanian people are thieves
23:26:44 <jwinterm> or something
23:26:59 <needmoney90> can't we culturally appropriate the word so it doesnt refer to them
23:27:04 <selsta> guess I will make sure to avoid everything hosted by this new company
23:27:27 <sethsimmons> <selsta "guess I will make sure to avoid "> What would be the better solution? Who would take over the channel?
23:28:14 <rehrar> Well, I think the whole "starting a new thing" implies starting a new thing. So a new channel, a new everything.
23:28:29 <rehrar> Let things contributed under one unspoken understanding stay in that understanding.
23:28:31 <intj440> ^ yes
23:28:36 <rehrar> Let the new stuff have the new understanding.
23:28:41 <sethsimmons> So handing off the YT, Twitter, etc?
23:28:52 <rehrar> YT is all that matters. At least imo.
23:29:04 <sethsimmons> Yeah that was my initial suggestion, but I know there are lots of opinions both ways.
23:29:42 <selsta> The fact that the youtube channel changing ownership was not mentioned in a single sentence says everything I have to know.
23:29:53 <selsta> This could have been talked about.
23:29:56 <selsta> (at least)
23:30:17 <sethsimmons> It was listed as an asset IIRC, but not sure what discussion occurred past that.
23:30:38 <selsta> the assets that were simultaneously services??
23:30:57 <sethsimmons> They were one or the other
23:31:00 <selsta> lol
23:31:56 <selsta> "We start a new workgroup"
23:32:08 <rehrar> I did note (I think publicly) that if there was going to be contention over any of the assets it would be the youtube
23:32:16 <rehrar> since that's where the most love has gone over the years
23:35:22 <sethsimmons> For sure
23:45:36 <rehrar> jwinterm: oof PC things
23:48:35 <niocbrrrrrr> I have had dealings with gypsies over time, they identify as ones that get over on others including one another
23:48:54 <needmoney90> one over*
23:49:03 <needmoney90> at least get your turns of speech right nioc
23:49:15 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> Can't people just repost/rehost the videos?
23:51:02 <needmoney90> They seem to be arguing that, because some of their efforts were involved in videos getting upvotes, they are entitled to the account (because those upvotes are theirs?)
23:51:15 <selsta> That was not the argument.
23:51:35 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> The talks and con videos had to be uploaded somewhere
23:52:09 <selsta> Yes, the community trusted Justin / Monero Community Workgroup with CCS funded videos.
23:52:16 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> Maybe uploading them all to a channel controlled by an individual in this way was daft in retrospect
23:52:17 <selsta> now they become part of an for profit company
23:52:22 <selsta> that already said they plan to make a profit
23:53:16 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> I doubt that YT channel is bringing in any ad money anytime soon
23:53:16 <selsta> it’s a breach of trust for me
23:54:02 <xmrscott[m]> Last time I checked monetization of videos, etc was never planned
23:54:04 <niocbrrrrrr> needmoney90: english is my second and only language
23:54:23 <selsta> xmrscott[m]: guess that can change now that the LLC has to make a profit
23:54:52 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> Like did the people who gave talks really care where they got uploaded? I imagine they mostly cared that they were creative Commons
23:55:19 <selsta> I’m not going to speculate what other people "care" about.
23:55:41 <selsta> I personally lost trust and will avoid all new infra hosted by them.
23:55:51 <niocbrrrrrr> selsta: I don't think aN LLC needs to make a profit
23:56:05 <selsta> niocbrrrrrr: they said they plan to make a profit
23:56:17 <niocbrrrrrr> ok, I missed that
23:58:28 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> I also missed that
23:59:47 <niocbrrrrrr> what I remember is that they said they might raise some money but not looking for a profit disclaimer:  I have only followed discussion in this channel and have not read the proposal and read virtually none of the discussion on reddit