00:03:07 <xmrscott[m]> So easy a caveman could use it™
13:16:15 -xmr-pr- [meta] SarangNoether opened issue #499: Research meeting: 19 August 2020 @ 17:00 UTC
13:16:15 -xmr-pr- > https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/499
15:24:52 <anhdres[m]> I still hate the "accounts" name, I'd go for *slots* or *drawers* or *boxes* or whatever
15:25:42 <sarang> Are those more helpful in practice?
15:25:51 <anhdres[m]> something that implies classification purpose, I don't know why but I always feel like an account is the top level, probably from banks
15:26:21 <sarang> They function as accounts in terms of "an addressable destination for assets", no?
15:26:27 <selsta> anhdres[m]: which account are you now talking about?
15:26:30 <anhdres[m]> <sarang "Are those more helpful in practi"> probably not. but I guess if we really care for UX we should do a lot of testing and research
15:26:48 <selsta> account as in wallet or account as in subaccount?
15:26:51 <sarang> e.g. many people have multiple accounts with the same bank, and can transfer funds effectively instantly between them
15:27:28 <anhdres[m]> <sarang "They function as accounts in ter"> yes. In my experience onboarding people in monerujo, many instantly assume "accounts" is a level above the "wallet"
15:27:40 <fahrradflucht[m]> <selsta "account as in wallet or account "> This question examplifies the naming problem pretty good 😅
15:27:52 <anhdres[m]> indeed
15:28:38 <anhdres[m]> probably something stressed by monerujo's design choices that shows many wallets on your main screen
15:29:01 <anhdres[m]> perhaps subaccounts would be clearer for our current accounts
15:29:29 <selsta> Subaccounts makes the account term more complicated
15:30:12 <selsta> Wallet -> Subaccounts -> Subaddresses ?
15:30:35 <sarang> Does that actually help without a list of definitions??
15:31:01 <fahrradflucht[m]> N26 Bank has something similar for checkin accounts and they are calling it "Spaces"...
15:31:24 <anhdres[m]> <selsta "Subaccounts makes the account te"> it makes them longer indeed, but the sub- implies it's a level below the wallet
15:31:30 <anhdres[m]> but a tricky subject, I know
15:31:45 <anhdres[m]> we discussed it a lot when we integrated the whole system into monerujo
15:32:47 <anhdres[m]> maybe it's just because it's very early, and people will come up with their own naming and we follow after
15:33:17 <anhdres[m]> like calling subaddresses "burners" or sth like that, because most people use them like that one-time thing
15:33:25 <anhdres[m]> I guess we'll see
15:33:46 <selsta> rehrar fix our UX issues
15:35:28 <selsta> https://n26.com/en-eu/spaces
15:35:33 <selsta> they call them spaces accounts
15:35:41 <midipoet> isn't it just Wallets > Accounts > subaddresses?
15:35:49 <selsta> midipoet: that’s what I thought
15:36:07 <selsta> but apparently some people call wallet account https://www.getmonero.org/resources/moneropedia/account.html
15:36:15 <midipoet> oh my
15:37:02 <sarang> ?
15:37:09 <anhdres[m]> my latest recommendation for usage is usually different wallets for different life aspects (work/personal/donations/trading), different accounts to classify people/clients/sources, and different subaddresses for those use cases you need extra privacy (exchanges/per sale/etc)
15:37:32 <anhdres[m]> does that make sense?
15:38:10 <sarang> Is this really an issue of terminology, and nothing more?
15:40:13 <rehrar> Selsta yes plz
15:40:35 <rehrar> Give me two weeks of hunkering down and really slamming it out, and I think I can get it to a usable place in terms of terminology and layout.
15:43:26 <selsta> anhdres[m]: yea agree with that
15:46:14 <anhdres[m]> Ideally the "wallet" would be the app, the "account" would be our current wallets, "subaccount" then "subaddresses"
15:46:17 <anhdres[m]> IMHO
15:46:46 <dsc_> sounds good^
15:46:54 <anhdres[m]> "Monerujo is a Monero wallet where you can create many accounts"
15:47:09 <anhdres[m]> Each account has its own seed
15:48:06 <anhdres[m]> Each "sub"account is implying to be derived from an account
15:48:14 <anhdres[m]> But not the main one
15:49:04 <anhdres[m]> Same with addresses, each account or subaccount has its own main address or base address and you can create many "sub"addresses more
15:50:20 <anhdres[m]> But to achieve that we have to stop using "wallets" even for the files, and only for the programs
15:52:35 <selsta> IMO having account and then subaccount is not ideal
15:53:42 <sarang> Is the intent to present "account" as being what the _recevier_ knows (keys/seed), and "subaccount" as being what is presented to potential _senders_ (addresses)?
15:57:49 <selsta> subaccounts group addresses, addresses would be presented to a potential sender
16:02:21 <dsc_> BTW, for this new Monero GUI I am making, we don't support accounts or primary addresss - everything is a subaddress.
16:02:43 <dsc_> And to prevent subaddress reuse, it automatically increments by detecting previously received tx's
16:03:17 <selsta> so only first account?
16:03:19 <dsc_> yes
16:03:39 <dsc_> I think the initial idea behind accounts in Monero is so that multiple people within a household can have their own account within a single wallet.
16:03:54 <selsta> no the problem is
16:03:58 <ErCiccione[m]> The point is just to use consistent terminology no? Then we can edit the moneropedia and all other  related entries accordingly
16:04:24 <selsta> unless you spend outputs manually, you will mix together outputs when only using 1 account
16:05:49 <dsc_> So the official GUI supports accounts to prevent mixing outputs yet nowhere it explains this
16:06:04 <dsc_> ? :P
16:06:17 <selsta> this is only for super paranoid :P
16:07:18 <anhdres[m]> <dsc_ "I think the initial idea behind "> wow that never occurred to me
16:08:06 <dsc_> anhdres[m]: that's what's been told to me at one point in time at least, while selsta argues it's about preventing mixing outputs
16:08:22 <selsta> it can be used for both
16:09:12 <anhdres[m]> what would be the undesirable outcome of mixing outputs, what could be inferred form that?
16:09:25 <selsta> it’s also for organisation and probably most people use it for that
16:09:41 <anhdres[m]> yeah that's how I use them
16:09:46 <dsc_> Anyway, I find it mostly a loss for UX hence the absence of accounts in my upcoming GUI, instead I support output control (freeze/thaw) and churn, as an advanced feature
16:10:05 <dsc_> And actively preventing subaddress reuse
16:11:17 <anhdres[m]> dsc_: how would it look to an user that imports a seed from a wallet that used accounts?
16:11:39 <dsc_> Well shit, that's a good question.
16:12:08 <anhdres[m]> because I think it's very important that we keep interoperability
16:12:35 <anhdres[m]> many users troubleshoot monerujo issues with the official gui and the other way around afaik
16:13:05 <dsc_> Solution: we will detect and warn upon finding a balance for subsequent accounts
16:20:59 <selsta> https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/2056
16:21:09 <selsta> 3.5 explains the issue I was talking about
16:22:08 <selsta> using one account per source is an easy way to not have to worry about linking
17:05:39 <midipoet> rehrar: in terms of UI/UX you ever seen privacypatterns.org?
17:15:10 <rehrar> yes
17:15:16 <rehrar> well researched
17:30:47 <fahrradflucht[m]> Talking about UX privacy patterns. Today I pasted my wallet password into my terminal because at least on linux the password input cursor in the GUI wallet blinks even when the window doesn't have focus 😅
17:31:03 <selsta> fahrradflucht[m]: which version?
17:31:05 <dsc_> fahrradflucht[m]: I fixed this
17:31:13 <selsta> yea this should be fixed lol
17:31:34 <selsta> unless I broke it again :D
17:31:39 <dsc_> *again* !
17:31:53 <fahrradflucht[m]> I updated today. From 16.0.2 to 16.0.3 not sure if it happened before or after
17:32:43 <fahrradflucht[m]> okay just tested. Its fixed 😊 Nice work, thanks.
17:32:59 <dsc_> [=
17:52:51 <sgp_> Is anyone interested in joining the Zcash Community Panel? I can invite a new member https://www.zfnd.org/blog/expanding-cap/
18:09:06 <rehrar> dsc_: fix everything
18:16:15 -xmr-pr- [meta] sethsimmons opened issue #500: Monero Release Checklist for v0.17.0.0 (hard-fork) - 10/17/2020
18:16:15 -xmr-pr- > https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/500
18:28:57 <kayront> https://journalducoin.com/bitcoin/actualites-bitcoin/bitcoin-fausse-monnaie-criminels-banque-france-lache-bitcoin/
18:29:00 <kayront> lol, ok boomers
18:40:04 <sarang> Those claims about illicit digital transactions seem _exceptionally_ higher than other examinations I've seen
18:40:18 <sarang> (usual disclaimer that I am neither a lawyer nor an expert in that space)
18:41:16 <kayront> same ,and even if they weren't, it could and imo likely just means that more creative-criminal types are going to flow to the opportunities available, and the fact that the rest of the population largely hasn't, doesn't mean that the technology inherently serves for criminal use only/mostly
18:41:40 <kayront> a simple reasoning that CBB (central bank boomers :p) either can't make (worrying) or conveniently don't (worrying, though expected)
18:43:09 <sarang> Well, at the very least I think it's important to have a proper understanding of how digital assets are being used
18:43:45 <kayront> the fact that bitcoin is basically unusable as digital cash should skew the results though
18:44:20 <sarang> But it sounds like even bitcoin is very rarely used for nefarious purposes compared to fiat
18:44:27 <sarang> and that media coverage happens to be skewed
18:44:35 <sarang> "person uses cash for evil" is hardly a news story anymore
18:44:43 <sarang> "person uses bitcoin for evil" clearly is
18:44:53 <kayront> yes
18:44:59 <sarang> So I very much wonder about this particular source
18:45:03 <kayront> like the internet was only going to be for criminals. remember those days?
18:45:15 <sarang> That seems to be the usual refrain for any new tool
18:45:48 <kayront> indeed
18:46:13 <kayront> what i really have trouble understanding is why most people don't seem to get that the alternative is just not viable
18:46:40 <kayront> the argument when it comes to money seems to be, if the state can't look at everything, you COULD be funding terrorists or you COULD be evading tax
18:47:01 <kayront> ok.. I COULD also be chatting terrorists up, or I COULD be reading terrorist sites, or buying terrorist books
18:47:09 <kayront> the horror! remove all encryption and store it all so that they can make sure I'm not
18:51:35 <sarang> o_0
19:20:12 <nakedpony> sarang: I just saw an article about how terrorists had a bunch of crypto seized by government forces
19:20:42 <nakedpony> in the article, you see they mention "30 crypto accounts" and then focus on how terrorists are using new technology
19:20:56 <sarang> I don't know this article
19:21:03 <nakedpony> they also mention they seized $200M in USD
19:21:06 <nakedpony> I will get it
19:21:16 <sarang> Is there a reason you mention it now?
19:22:21 <nakedpony> sarang: yeah because they talk about how crypto like it's the focus on funding for terrorism, and don't even specify the amount of crypto seized. And just barely mention $200M USD was also seized
19:22:33 <nakedpony> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/08/13/doj-cryptocurrency-seized-terrorist-financing-investigation/3363048001/
19:22:48 <sarang> ah ok
19:23:14 <nakedpony> oh shit $2M
19:23:55 <nakedpony> not 200. but point being if the say it's BTC, they say the number of accounts, but they don't specify the amounts at all. The millions was in USD
19:25:07 <nakedpony> apparently the folly of the terrorists was that they thought Bitcoin worked like Monero
22:01:15 -xmr-pr- [css-proposals] vtnerd opened pull request #161: Marking Tor/I2P milestone 2 completed.
22:01:15 -xmr-pr- > https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/161
23:37:24 <sgp_> anhdres: are you on IRC directly somehow?
23:37:29 <sgp_> or just mattermosT?
23:39:02 <anhdres[m]> Actually I'm using the artist formerly known as riot
23:39:12 <sgp_> aww yeah :)
23:39:17 <anhdres[m]> Element