00:27:42 <sgp_> I don't think Reddit is going to crack down on you really for the VPN convo since it's a tiny part of the overall discussion, but it's probably best to enforce egregious cases at least
00:28:19 <sgp_> needmoney90 jwinterm
00:28:46 <needmoney90> yup, jw has shot them a message so we can at least show good faith
00:29:03 <sgp_> Okay
00:29:14 <sgp_> I'm not especially concerned about things as they currently are
00:29:15 <needmoney90> Even if they don't respond we have a paper trail that we wanted to deal with it.
00:29:42 <needmoney90> sgp_: I'm much much more comfortable changing policy at the bottom of a bear market when interest is low, vs when there's momentum.
00:30:00 <needmoney90> Or at least discussing it
00:30:32 <sgp_> Maybe but during a bull run most people are probably talking about other things anyway
00:30:42 <needmoney90> how 2 buy moner
00:30:46 <needmoney90> how 2 sell moreno
00:30:52 <needmoney90> 'but im restricted!'
00:31:31 <sgp_> Kraken is recommended most of the time
00:31:33 <jwinterm> brb need to turn on my vpn so I can long moreno on btse
00:31:49 <jwinterm> lol
00:31:52 <dsc_> .ogre xmr
00:31:52 <monerobux> BTC-XMR on Tradeogre at 0.00787989 BTC on 0.970 BTC volume
00:32:01 <sgp_> Are you going to require that people explain all the nuances of p2p regulation before recommending localmonero?
00:32:14 <dsc_> monero pamp
00:32:35 <needmoney90> Moderation is difficult and I take problems as I see them
00:32:43 <sgp_> Basically: remove all posts where the intent is obviously to break the law or circumvent laws
00:33:06 <sgp_> You seem to be doing that already
00:33:11 <needmoney90> for the most part.
00:33:15 <needmoney90> there's some holes
00:33:20 <sgp_> If the VPN stuff gets too close in that category, then enforce a bit more
06:49:05 <Guest49387> Is this really felt as a problem that could lead to the ban of the sub? Personally i don't really think so, especially since there isn't clear laws about it. Enforcing something so marginal will only make user feel like they have to be careful to everything they say. Not really a stimulating environment.
06:50:28 <Guest49387> I agree that the situation is fine as it is.
06:52:30 <needmoney90> People make the same argument for literally every illegal activity discussion though.
06:52:54 <needmoney90> 'why can't we talk about drugs? There are drug subreddits! They aren't banned'
06:53:08 <needmoney90> 'why can't we talk about tax evasion?'
06:53:17 <needmoney90> 'why can't we talk about circumventing geoblocks?'
06:54:19 <needmoney90> Like. Status quo is a thing, for sure. That doesn't mean we can't be cautious though. Advising people on how to break the law is Grey, however you cut it.
06:54:40 <needmoney90> Anyone who sees absolutely no risk in it isn't looking hard enough imo
06:55:30 <needmoney90> And if you see no risk in it, where is your line for advising people on how to break the law?
06:55:54 <needmoney90> Again, arguing no line exists is similarly naive imo
06:57:02 <needmoney90> What's the criteria for 'this crime is significant enough to not allow people to give advice on how to commit it'?
06:58:47 <Guest49387> I didn't say we shouldn't talking about it and i didn't say there shluldn't be a line. I'm also not saying there is no risk. I'm saying that banning any discussion that _could_ be about something illegal is excessive and will only resault in  people not feeling free to speak their mind or migrating to another platform
06:59:00 <needmoney90> Did I say that?
06:59:05 <Guest49387> Which may be not that nad actually :p
06:59:07 <needmoney90> I suggest you reread my messages
06:59:33 <needmoney90> This is only pertaining to actual advice to use VPNs to bypass georestrictions, not restriction on all VPN discussion.
07:00:08 <needmoney90> It's not 'could be illegal', this is for beyond doubt advice to bypass geoblocks
07:02:19 <Guest49387> Maybe i misunderstood, but from the conversation i read seems like it's not clear if corcunventing geoblocks is even illegal. And if it is, is it something reddit would see as a bannable offence for the whole subreddit? That's my point
07:02:52 <needmoney90> It's definitely a possibility I would prefer to avoid.
07:03:23 <Guest49387> Did i say that <- you were making the point answering to me. I assumed it was related to my anser. If it was not, my bad
07:03:45 <needmoney90> I assumed you'd read the context
07:03:56 <needmoney90> Which included a note that normal VPN use isn't on the table here
07:04:30 <Guest49387> Yes, i got the point in doscussion
07:04:56 <needmoney90> With regards to whether advising people on how to bypass geoblocks is *actually* illegal, we're on the fringe of technology, and law hasn't caught up. I don't want to be the case law.
07:05:54 <needmoney90> There's a big red flag there in my mind, and I assume it would be in the mind of anyone who wants to throw the book at us
07:07:14 <needmoney90> There is 100% an argument / loose precedent to argue that bypassing geoblocks is 'unauthorized access to a computer system', and a violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA)
07:07:43 <needmoney90> Which is confirmed by the first stackexchange post you find on Google when using similar search phrases
07:07:59 <Guest49387> Enforce every law in existence and you would be soon speaking to yourself on reddit. As i said, i don't see it as a red flag at all, but i think you already made up your mind about it. So, whatever. If peope don't feel confortable speaking on reddit, they will simply go somewhere else
07:08:45 <needmoney90> You mistake having thought about my position with stubbornness. I'll wait for others to chime in I guess
07:10:27 <Guest49387> Again, a "loose precedent" is enough to enforce something so marginal? Your answer is yes, mine is no. That's it.
07:10:46 <Guest49387> Personally i will aslo be happy if people move away from reddit, so all good :P
07:41:10 <Guest49387> <Guest49387 "Again, a "loose precedent" is en"> And btw needmoney90, i know we are not talking about VPNs in general and i did read the whole conversation. Don't know what made you think otherwise but that's not the case.
07:41:44 <Guest49387> Don't know why i quoted that message on matrix
08:46:43 <xmrscott[m]> Fortunately it's not like people are trying to break every law on r/monero :)
08:49:08 <xmrscott[m]> It's worth highlighting that unless one works at a three letter agency, we have no idea where Monero sits on the totem pole of things to try to destroy. No point in giving them an in when the moderator cost is so low to remove vpn circumvention comments
12:16:46 <gingeropolous> id say its not monero related, so .... doesn't really belong on the subreddit
13:01:23 <dEBRUYNE> How to spin a positive into a negative lol -> https://twitter.com/Cointelegraph/status/1287670442287755264
13:01:29 <dEBRUYNE> sethsimmons: You interested in correcting them? :p
13:09:17 <sethsimmons> Always something to correct in the Twitterverse XD
13:11:38 <sethsimmons> That articles actually a lot better than I expected
13:12:08 <sethsimmons> What jumped out as needing correction? They're pretty much correct, even though I would probably phrase some thing differently.
13:13:15 <dEBRUYNE> Meh the tweet and title was a bit sensational imo
13:13:25 <sethsimmons> Definitely
13:13:41 <sethsimmons> It's all a bit more dramatic than reality
13:15:02 <sethsimmons> Replied with my thread on it/quick response
14:14:42 <Guest49387> I remember a recent discussion about these Incognito folks. They look legit. Are they?
14:14:43 <Guest49387> https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/issues/1103
14:19:31 <sethsimmons> It's... odd
14:19:43 <sethsimmons> I looked into them a bit a few months back
14:20:02 <sethsimmons> Their whole exchange is basically Uniswap-style, with AMMs at the core
14:20:10 <sethsimmons> But a bunch of things require you to own/stake their token
14:20:59 <sgp_> they deserve to be added to the merchant list imo, but they have bit off a big scope and it's hard to tell what all the limitations are
14:21:58 <sgp_> for example, they currently custody the real XMR, though they want to decentralize the custody of it by requiring custodians to over-collateralize. stuff like that
14:25:44 <sgp_> also it's hard for me to evaluate just how private the PRV transfers are. is there documentation on it? I know they say they use RingCT
14:26:08 <sethsimmons> It was hard to track down specifics when I was looking, which was a turn-off
14:26:16 <sethsimmons> But it could just be lack of good documentation
14:26:39 <sgp_> yeah but that's still a big red flag haha
14:26:55 <sgp_> hopefully they define this better soon
14:27:35 <Guest49387> Ok, looks like there is no reason to not add them. Thanks guys
14:27:58 <sgp_> they also can't grow too large since they are custodying assets, which means they are obviously VASPs in the US and would have to register with FinCEN
14:28:25 <sgp_> Guest49387: yeah, I support adding them
14:29:52 <sethsimmons> For sure
16:09:59 <sgp_> I just spoke with B2BinPay. They confirmed that they accept Monero and other cryptos, and can settle in a single crypto or USD, EUR, GBP
16:12:03 <sgp_> they have an initial setup fee of $500 for settling in crypto or $1000 for settling in fiat. they take 1% for payments in stablecoins, 0.5% for other coins, and 0.75-2% extra if you want to settle in fiat. I'm not sure about who they use for exchange rates
16:12:11 <sgp_> they do not handle US customers or entities
16:12:39 <sgp_> still, this might be the simplest solution for non-US companies
16:13:25 <sgp_> fluffypony: any chance GloBee can offer settlement in USDC?
16:14:31 <fluffypony> sure, can ask them
16:15:55 <sgp_> cool, that would allow me to realistically settle to USD outside of Bitpay/Uphold without worrying about volatility
16:49:01 <sgp_> sethsimmons: I asked some questions here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/hyudpa/uniswap_type_privacyfocused_dex_for_monero/fzf4bdh/
16:49:01 <monerobux> [REDDIT] Uniswap type privacy-focused DEX for Monero. Development updates and challenges to solve. (self.Monero) | 7 points (100.0%) | 1 comments | Posted by boogaav | Created at 2020-07-27 - 15:29:20
16:49:18 <sethsimmons> Thanks!
16:52:14 <sgp_> Incognito just has so much stuff going on; there's no way their community members truly have a good grasp over all the dynamics
18:06:10 <rehrar> they seem to be actively trying to build a relationship of sorts with Monero
18:06:16 <rehrar> or become part of the ecosystem in some small way
18:06:26 <rehrar> I think their heart is in the right place, but I don't know about their tech.
18:06:28 <rehrar> Also premine.
19:48:49 <dsc_> rbrunner: ping
20:52:15 <Guest49387> Let's not forget they have a big economical incentive in being well seen by the community.
21:31:32 <kinghat[m]> sucks btc had to gap like that. just means we have to eventually go back and fill it 😭
22:24:00 <sgp_> we need a sexy CLSAG logo. Can someone make one better than this? https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/bkba0UTQ/clsag
22:29:03 <rehrar> sgp_: before when?
22:29:34 <dsc_> kinda like that one
22:33:31 <sarang> I have a draft blag post but it has no graphics of any kind right now
22:34:49 <rehrar> want some sarang ? tell me what you need
22:37:49 <dsc_> 150$ !
22:38:07 <rehrar> I love sarang so much that I'll pay him to make him graphics
22:38:13 <dsc_> pfffff :D
22:38:18 <dsc_> jk
22:40:22 <sgp_> this doesn
22:40:31 <sgp_> *doesn't need to be super fancy
22:40:40 <rehrar> sgp_:
22:40:46 <rehrar> sgp_ sgp_ sgp_
22:40:51 <dsc_> sgp_:
22:40:57 <rehrar> when do I not pour my everything into my work?
22:41:12 <sgp_> bc then defcon wouldn't happen :p
22:41:19 <rehrar> working on that too btw
22:41:25 <rehrar> we're on all cylinders these days
22:43:04 <sgp_> exactly
22:43:35 <sarang> rehrar do you think it's worth it to include graphics showing the benefits?
22:45:50 <rehrar> sure. Just tell me what you need.
22:46:02 <rehrar> Defcon will take some priority, but if you think it'll be helpful then I'm game.
22:49:42 <sarang> I'm not sure the best way to convey the improvements
22:49:49 <sarang> Right now it's just in text
22:56:23 <sgp_> sarang: https://web.getmonero.org/blog/assets/pruning/pruning.JPG?
23:09:46 <needmoney90> sgp_ needs more numbers
23:09:47 <needmoney90> pretty
23:09:50 <needmoney90> but I need numbers
23:11:04 <sgp_> we can either keep the releases back to 0.12 or we can only compare against the current mlsag version
23:15:09 <sgp_> sethsimmons: have you thought about making a blog post comparing the transaction costs for reasonable privacy (following best practices) with Monero, Bitcoin, Ethereum, Zcash? I saw you tweeted about it, but I think it would also make a good blog post on getmonero.org