03:18:05 <lena88> Hey guys! When do you plan to do the next Coffee chat? Love this format:)
03:33:53 <sgp_> lena88: July 25
03:34:16 <sgp_> https://www.communityworkgroup.org/community-meetings
03:34:47 <lena88> Thanks @sgp_!
06:23:57 <fluffypony> xmrscott[m]: yeah we immediately went in and revoked access for people that hadn't used it in a while, and revoked apps etc.
06:24:05 <fluffypony> we took as many precautions as possible
06:24:19 <fluffypony> but if it was internal to Twitter then we would have been popped either way if they wanted to
06:24:34 <fluffypony> re: deleting, they changed the email and password and logged you out
06:24:50 <fluffypony> so there's no way to delete unless you still retained access somehow or were working with Twitter directly
06:25:35 <fluffypony> https://twitter.com/TwitterSupport/status/1283591844962750464
06:29:38 <xmrscott[m]> Yeah to me it's kind of crazy that they seem to freely have a god mod for anyone policy or at least no dual+ sign off or whatever after the POTUS account deletion incident. From what it sounds like the only thing that changed is they may have limited access to POTUS to just jack and one or two others or something
06:31:44 <xmrscott[m]> Otherwise you can have abusive ex's or whatever abusing their powers w/o notice :/
06:32:06 <fluffypony> yep
06:34:12 <lza_menace> changing comms. should i go signal or wire?
06:35:17 <fluffypony> Wire
06:35:57 <lza_menace> ty. ill check it out
06:38:30 <fluffypony> Signal made another misstep with SVR
06:38:34 <fluffypony> https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2020/07/10/a-few-thoughts-about-signals-secure-value-recovery/
06:39:02 <fluffypony> I don't know how they think that not listening to infosec people is a good way to build a security-focused product
06:39:19 <dEBRUYNE> The forced PIN is kind of annoying
06:39:27 <dEBRUYNE> At some point you couldn't use the app unless you set up a PIN
06:39:43 <lza_menace> huh
06:40:01 <lza_menace> i was rooting for moxie
06:41:30 <lza_menace> sslstrip was the shit
06:42:00 <fluffypony> lza_menace: his obsession with SGX is his downfall
06:42:06 <fluffypony> SGX is a total clustertruck
06:42:32 <fluffypony> and Mobilecoin is obsessed with it too, which is unsurprising as Moxie is an advisor
06:42:42 <lza_menace> this intel thing?
06:42:53 <fluffypony> yeah the thing that gets critically broken every few months
06:45:19 <lza_menace> maybe the corporate ic got to him
06:52:48 <fluffypony> word
07:01:16 <rehrar> fluffypony: but Wire stores so much info in plain text :(
07:01:40 <rehrar> and they can't get their Android app to not completely suck dick
07:02:21 <rehrar> half the time I click on a push notification for a message I get, and get taken to the wrong conversation (with a different person).
07:02:33 <rehrar> Many times I don't receive the notifications at all for quite some time.
07:03:21 <fluffypony> rehrar: you can run your own Wire server if you want, and they're working on federation
07:03:48 <rehrar> ye but that doesn't solve their app being ass problem
07:05:38 <xmrscott[m]> Yeah, for context for anyone reading: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/gvzw5x/secure-messaging-app-wire-stores-everyone-youve-ever-contacted-in-plain-text
07:06:34 <xmrscott[m]> Not sure if GNU Jami is similar levels of bad as I haven't done any deep dives, but it's what I use for the time being
07:06:41 <rehrar> I feel like if they solve their awful app problem, I'd be much happier to use it more consistently again. But for now it's too laggy, it takes me to the wrong conversations, it freezes up, it doesn't give me notifications or messages sometimes, it doesn't clear the number (indicating unseen messages) after I've already viewed messages (sometimes for a week or more)
07:07:01 <rehrar> and I feel like these are basic things.
07:08:07 <lza_menace> software sucks
07:09:08 <rehrar> lza_menace: this is true, but why does literally every other messenger take me to the correct conversation when I click a push notification except Wire?
07:09:16 <rehrar> I feel like this is a new level of suckage.
07:12:34 <rehrar> I feel like Signal should suck it up and move to mnemonic seed based stuff for their encryption of our data on their servers.
07:12:47 <fluffypony> rehrar: have you opened an issue on GitHub for it?
07:13:03 <fluffypony> https://github.com/wireapp/wire-android
07:13:14 <rehrar> fluffypony: I haven't. Let me see if someone has complained about the same thing.
07:13:30 <rehrar> I'm also not fond of their UX. Who do I talk with about that? (serious)
07:15:28 <fluffypony> open issues on the repos
07:15:37 <fluffypony> the more specificity the better
07:19:06 <rehrar> are they fairly attentive?
07:19:11 <rehrar> if so, I'll do this.
07:19:48 <fluffypony> I think so
07:32:32 <rehrar> Hmmm....
07:32:34 <rehrar> Hmmmmmmmmm
07:47:55 <Mumuks[m]> <lza_menace "changing comms. should i go sign"> Element/Matrix (former Riot)
07:48:58 <Mumuks[m]> https://sifted.eu/articles/element-germany-deal/
07:50:08 <Mumuks[m]> From yesterday
08:13:55 <xmrscott[m]> Awesome to see Germany join France. The nice thing about the EU nations is that they tend to have a philosophy of financially investing/donating some of the savings to the teams that develop FOSS they use compared to say for profit enterprises
08:23:22 <xmrscott[m]> Also OMG, finally, alphabetic ordering coming soon
11:10:54 <dixie__flatline[> <lza_menace "changing comms. should i go sign"> signal
12:09:29 <fort3hlulz> Lol I'm doing an AMA for Monero with a group based in Asia and they introduced me as the "Community Lead"
12:10:02 <fort3hlulz> BOW TO YOUR NEW LEADER
12:11:42 * dsc_ wants an autograph
12:11:50 <sarang> -___-
12:14:53 <fort3hlulz> I've told them many times but they really wanted a clear title
12:15:00 <fort3hlulz> "Community Member" wasn't enough I guess
12:16:29 <sarang> sigh
12:16:35 <sarang> Everybody's gotta have a title
12:16:40 <sarang> Contributor?
12:16:49 <fort3hlulz> They also wanted to know how many offices we have and how many employees
12:16:59 <fort3hlulz> I don't think they're used to hosting actually decentralized projects
12:19:24 <sarang> I often open talks by specifically mentioning that Monero is an open-source project, and that there's no company, foundation, or ICO
12:19:43 <sarang> It has many contributing developers, community members, researchers, translators, and so on
12:19:53 <sarang> Can help set the stage
12:20:19 <fort3hlulz> Yeah I made sure to re-iterate that a few times in different questions so far
12:20:33 <fort3hlulz> Because it's obvious thats not common in this audience
12:20:44 <sarang> Great; helps the audience know that open-source development is still a thing :)
12:21:38 <fort3hlulz> For sure!
12:21:47 <fort3hlulz> This seems to have a pretty broad/large audience so I'm glad it worked out
12:21:59 <fort3hlulz> 1200 members in their Telegram and apparently they have 6 much larger WeChat groups
12:22:23 <sarang> wow
12:22:27 <fort3hlulz> That they're livestreaming this too/translating
12:22:37 <sarang> no pressure
12:22:43 <fort3hlulz> lol
12:22:55 <fort3hlulz> Right now its a prepared set of questions they sent me last night
12:23:04 <fort3hlulz> Next is the actual AMA which should be interesting
12:23:08 <sarang> Even more important to reiterate the nature of the project, so people don't think you represent anyone else's views
12:33:27 <fort3hlulz> But I'm the community lead now
12:33:32 <fort3hlulz> I am *the* authority
12:33:37 <fort3hlulz> :P
12:36:33 <sarang> Someone call IRC for op privileges, stat
12:38:06 <fort3hlulz> heh
12:38:31 <fort3hlulz> Of course someone brought this up:
12:38:31 <fort3hlulz> There is news that terrorists take advantages on anonymous coins. ISIS is using Monero to raise funds, what do you think about this? How to avoid being used improperly?
12:38:31 <fort3hlulz> -	https://cointelegraph.com/news/isis-affiliated-news-website-to-collect-donations-with-monero
12:38:39 <fort3hlulz> Sigh...
12:38:52 <fort3hlulz> Here's what I'm going to say, any quick feedback?
12:38:53 <fort3hlulz> o	There is no source for this news, and it appears to be entirely false.
12:38:53 <fort3hlulz> o	If it is true, I’m saddened that something like Monero is being used for this purpose, and Monero in no way supports terrorism. Many other existing currencies (like USD) are used for funding terrorism, but that doesn’t invalidate the value they bring to the world.
12:38:53 <fort3hlulz> o	As mentioned above, Monero has no power or ability to control or monitor the way that Monero is used, as it is a censorship-resistant and permissionless currency, similar to cash.
12:39:21 <sarang> Bad actors use whatever tools are available to them
12:40:44 <sarang> That news was reported by several entities
12:41:16 <fort3hlulz> They all sourced from the same unsourced article though
12:41:19 <sarang> but it's not clear what the specific nature of the fundraising entity is
12:41:27 <fort3hlulz> Yeah
12:41:29 <sarang> Then again, I don't have any information beyond what I read in those articles
12:41:46 <fort3hlulz> Yeah thats why I went with "its probably false, but if not..."
12:42:26 <sarang> I don't know how to build math that only works when certain types of people use it
12:43:20 <sarang> Anyway, all the research I've seen indicates that the use of distributed digital assets for illicit purposes is extremely low compared to fiat
12:43:56 <sarang> I suspect media tends to cover "bad" uses of newer technology much more than of older technology, which can make it seem more prevalent than it is
12:43:57 <fort3hlulz> Yeah I harped ont hat with a few of these questions
12:44:13 <fort3hlulz> USD is still used for far more illicit actions than all of cryptocurrency combined
12:45:22 <sarang> Anyway, that question seems to be basically asking "how do we get rid of crimes" which I don't think any society has solved, unfortunately :/
12:48:44 <fort3hlulz> Yeah unfortunately the answer to that question goes far deeper than money
12:49:04 <sarang> And there are plenty of good reasons to want to use a privacy-preserving digital asset
12:49:14 <sarang> Using something transparent could expose a user to risk
12:49:39 <sarang> If companies can do analysis to link transactions to individuals and companies, it's no major leap to assume that nefarious actors can do the same
12:50:38 <sarang> Any other questions of note that were asked?
12:50:57 <fort3hlulz> I have a whole list I'll share after, still working through the prepared questions
12:51:08 <fort3hlulz> Most were pretty straightforward
12:51:12 <sarang> May I recommend avoiding wording like "Monero supports..." and such
12:51:27 <sarang> That seems to assign views to individuals
12:51:47 <fort3hlulz> ah, absolutely true
12:52:16 <fort3hlulz> SHould have just said "I in no way support terrorism" I guess
12:52:48 <sarang> I would hope that every contributor does not support that
12:53:06 <fort3hlulz> for sure
12:53:30 <fort3hlulz> But the beauty (and pain) of a permissionless network is you're free to support whatever you like
12:54:09 <fort3hlulz> (and do whatever you like on the network as long as you pay your fees)
12:54:52 <sarang> I like the Zcash FAQ answer on illicit use: https://z.cash/support/faq/#bad-people
12:55:08 <sarang> It's short and to the point
12:56:17 <fort3hlulz> I like that
12:56:38 <sarang> If people only developed beneficial tools that could never be used by bad actors, the world would have no tools of any kind
12:57:16 <sarang> and as far as we know, privacy-focused distributed digital assets can be used completely in line with compliance policies and regulations that are in common use around the world
12:58:17 <sarang> Supporting privacy and opposing crime are not mutually exclusive, and I think it's important not to fall into the trap of assuming they are
12:59:36 <fort3hlulz> Preach :D
13:06:28 <fort3hlulz> Full AMA, hope I did Monero justice 0.0
13:06:29 <fort3hlulz> https://paste.centos.org/view/eae7127b
13:07:10 <fort3hlulz> The community didn't have any more questions than the prepared ones apparently, but there is a summit at the end of September they'd like us to be a part of
13:08:27 <fort3hlulz> Would love any feedback on answers you all have as well, always want to be improving on phrasing or technical details :)
13:08:40 <fort3hlulz> Now time to get to work on my day job :P
13:11:46 <sarang> Monero did initially use the CrypotoNote protocol, but it's evolved significantly over time
13:12:12 <sarang> I've started just using the term "Monero protocol" to describe the transaction protocol, and say that it has roots in CryptoNote
13:14:03 <sarang> Heh, I'm surprised you said what assets you hold
13:14:26 <sarang> "The whole point is that's nobody's business!"
13:38:23 <fort3hlulz> Heh, valid point :P At least I know in Monero I don
13:38:30 <fort3hlulz> 't have to worry about anyone figuring out how much I have ;)
13:39:00 <doktoro> I don't even know how much I have B)
13:54:35 <sgp_> sarang: as much as I understand the "bad guys will use anything" argument, I try to make sure to be careful not to put off people who are against gun ownership as I make that point. If people aren't careful, they can sound like an NRA lobbyist lol
13:55:05 <sarang> good point
13:58:35 <doktoro> Just use the drug war as an analogy for people who you assume are against gun ownership.
14:00:38 <sgp_> "Many other existing currencies (like USD) are used for funding terrorism, but that doesn’t invalidate the value they bring to the world." <- I like this sentence
14:00:45 <fort3hlulz> :)
14:00:51 <doktoro> ^
14:01:55 <sgp_> typically I also stress that the community does its damnedest to make sure that illicit activities remain an extremely small portion of the overall activities
14:02:39 <sgp_> (for example: the Monero Malware Response Workgroup assists victims of Monero-related malware)
14:02:51 <doktoro> Get internet personalities who accept bitcoin in their donations to accept monero. Recently got a fairly well known person to include it
14:03:52 <fort3hlulz> Ah, that workgroup is a great example of members of the community fighting against illicit usage!
14:03:57 <fort3hlulz> Good point.
14:05:34 <sgp_> final comment: it's probably worth another sentence explaining why RandomX isn't just another "look we added another thing to the algo to kill ASICs for 2 seconds" algo
14:05:43 <sgp_> however this really is a set of 10/10 responses
14:05:53 <fort3hlulz> Thanks for the high praise :D
14:05:58 <sgp_> you need to do more of these
14:06:18 <fort3hlulz> I figured it wasn't a technical enough audience for them to worry about the possibility of ASIC-resistance/know about previous failed attempts in this style of AMA
14:06:45 <fort3hlulz> <sgp_> you need to do more of these <- I think this is a great way I can contribute to Monero, so I'm always happy to do this kind of thing/looking for opportunities
14:07:34 <sgp_> "this isn't just another supposed ASIC-resistant algorithm; it was built from the ground up and audited four times"
14:08:33 <fort3hlulz> Great wording!
14:08:49 <fort3hlulz> I think I'll go through and edit this doc a bit and share it on Reddit/Twitter as a FAQ
14:15:12 <fort3hlulz> Obviously without the personal QA :P
14:43:46 <fort3hlulz> https://twitter.com/sethisimmons/status/1283774301389430785?s=20
14:50:11 <fort3hlulz> Direct link to the "FAQ": https://github.com/fort3hlulz/Miscellaneous-Monero/blob/master/Monero%20FAQ.pdf
14:50:39 <rehrar> oyos
14:51:58 <fort3hlulz> howdy rehrar
14:52:29 <rehrar> hi
14:55:00 <sgp_> fort3hlulz: do you know if Google can index the text in the GitHub PDF?
14:56:52 <sarang> GitHub will automatically render markdown
14:56:56 <sarang> might be a good option for this
14:57:17 <sarang> also likely better for accessibility
14:57:40 <fort3hlulz> As in it would better to put it in MD instead of PDF?
14:57:40 <fort3hlulz> I can duplicate it to that later
14:58:27 <sarang> If you use a .md extension, github will try to render as markdown
14:58:39 <sarang> but then the underlying text is still available, and still pretty darn readable
14:58:56 <sarang> easier to copy/paste, probably better for things like screen readers, etc.
14:59:47 <sarang> and reddit understands markdown too (if you switch to that editor format) if that's useful to you
15:01:19 <fort3hlulz> Idk if I remember enough MD to edit this into a proper doc lmao
15:01:31 <fort3hlulz> None of the subpoints get broken out
15:01:40 <fort3hlulz> Its just each question and a block of text
15:01:53 <fort3hlulz> ah yeah double space after line
15:01:57 <sarang> https://guides.github.com/features/mastering-markdown/
15:06:25 <gingeropolous> "Monero aims to provide real privacy, by default, enabling the future of digital cash while protecting each users right to financial privacy." ... :( Monero aims to be money, and money needs to be fungible, and things that are fungible inherently need privacy
15:07:59 <dEBRUYNE> <sgp_> typically I also stress that the community does its damnedest to make sure that illicit activities remain an extremely small portion of the overall activities
15:08:13 <dEBRUYNE> Subreddit also forbids any talk of utilizing Monero to break the law
15:08:15 <dEBRUYNE> Or association
15:09:03 <rehrar> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbdZi-mUM1Y
15:09:03 <monerobux> [ DeFi Africa Virtual Meetup n3 - The Importance of Privacy in DeFi - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com
15:09:12 <rehrar> I'm talking on this panel on privacy
15:09:15 <rehrar> for DeFi
15:09:41 <fort3hlulz> gingeropolous I definitely agree with you, but think that privacy is a more approachable selling point than fungibility for most
15:09:50 <fort3hlulz> But I think your wording is also true
15:09:56 <gingeropolous> i guess. but it pegs monero as a privacy coin.
15:10:18 <gingeropolous> monero. means. money . :)
15:10:21 <asymptotically> monono is fungusable
15:11:57 <Mumuks[m]> <xmrscott[m] "Awesome to see Germany join Fran"> It is true, plus I think the USA hacking European politicians, the most famous one Obama spying on Merkel phone, has made European bureocrats realize they can not trust USA companies and have to find solutions where they have full control of the data, and federated options like Element/Matrix are an obvious choice
15:12:16 <rehrar> I don't know how this is going to be. I don't have high hopes for DeFi stuff so I wonder how they'll take it.
15:12:34 <sgp_> rehrar: I'm watching
15:14:26 <gingeropolous> great ama though fort3hlulz
15:14:45 <fort3hlulz> Thanks for the feedback!
15:16:00 <fort3hlulz> I agree the ultimate aim is simply money that works as money
15:16:19 <fort3hlulz> Could probably clarify that while emphasizing its achieved through privacy (which is necessary for money)
15:16:56 <gingeropolous> well, i'd argue its necessary for decentralized money
15:17:17 <gingeropolous> government sanctioned money can get away with traceable money because they can make laws that make it fungible
15:17:54 <gingeropolous> but extralaw money doesn't have that luxury
15:18:09 <fort3hlulz> Initial markdown version: https://github.com/fort3hlulz/Miscellaneous-Monero/blob/master/Monero%20FAQ.md
15:18:11 <gingeropolous> exalaw?
15:18:19 <fort3hlulz> never heard that term 0.o
15:18:25 <gingeropolous> no i think i made it up
15:18:40 <gingeropolous> because its not outlaw, it just doesn't have laws
15:18:53 <gingeropolous> well, it has code laws
15:18:56 <fort3hlulz> Then extralaw or extra-law I guess haha
15:19:13 <xmrscott[m]> If anyone wants a link to the I. s 1 s site I can give it. It took all of 3 minutes to find after I saw news about it when d s c(?) started aubtweeting it
15:19:31 <xmrscott[m]> TBH I was surprised Google returned the site
15:19:50 <sarang> That sounds like a bad idea
15:20:21 <dsc_> xmrscott[m]: d s c ? is that me? :P
15:20:43 <asymptotically> dsc_: what are you doing outside of #monero-gui!?
15:20:51 <dsc_> my bad
15:21:14 <sgp_> eww Incognito
15:22:58 <rehrar> I think Incognito has their heart (minus premine) in the right place, but.....
15:23:10 <rehrar> it gets a huge eeeeeeeehhhhhhh from me
15:24:32 <xmrscott[m]> I suppose I should probably report it to Google to blacklist at some point
15:24:43 <xmrscott[m]> Yeah, I didn't want to highlight you cuz I couldn't remember who actually first asked in a subtweet / rt for sou rceif it was you or jt or something
15:38:51 <rehrar> sgp_: thoughts?
15:38:55 <rehrar> do you think I'm way off base?
15:43:13 <sgp_> idk, depends on what your goals in the interview are
15:43:28 <rehrar> maybe from here on out I'll try to be a bit more positive.
15:43:48 <rehrar> idk what my goals are, they invited me on and told me to just be honest
15:43:49 <sgp_> it's okay to be critical, just... make sure not to scare people away lol
15:44:42 <sgp_> Reuben came out and played the skeptic card in a way that doesn't close him off
15:48:52 <rehrar> I hope that helped. :P
15:58:40 <sgp_> I think it did a bit
16:00:06 <sgp_> we need to inspire people. doesn't need to be with false hopes tho like many others :p
16:00:53 <rehrar> but if you know the reality, then there often isn't much to inspire with
16:01:28 <rehrar> going back to the 'time travel' example. If you know the reality that we are nowhere close to time technology, then how can the truth inspire people?
16:09:01 <rehrar> LOL!
16:10:53 <rehrar> well that happened
16:10:56 <rehrar> ok. done.
16:14:54 <lza_menace> you're a community lead in my book, fort3hlulz....you hang out in irc :P
16:16:32 <fort3hlulz> XD
16:34:10 <sgp_> rehrar: I didn't catch the end. How was it?
16:36:50 <rehrar> Aight
16:45:38 -xmr-pr- [meta] SamsungGalaxyPlayer opened issue #486: Community Workgroup Meeting: 18 July 2020 17:00 UTC
16:45:38 -xmr-pr- > https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/486
17:14:12 <sarang> rehrar etc: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-front/-/merge_requests/31
17:14:17 <sarang> Removes JS analytics from CCS
17:16:00 <sarang> Code isn't even functional
17:16:07 <rehrar> Ye. Aight.
17:16:16 <sarang> There's a similar PR in #monero-site too
18:38:59 <fort3hlulz> I'm confused: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/hsavjr/created_a_faq_based_on_some_questions_i_got/fy9vuwd/
18:39:00 <monerobux> [REDDIT] Created a FAQ based on some questions I got during an AMA on ChainTalkTV about Monero, and figured I'd share! (https://github.com/fort3hlulz/Miscellaneous-Monero/blob/master/Monero%20FAQ.pdf) to r/Monero | 12 points (100.0%) | 5 comments | Posted by fort3hlulz | Created at 2020-07-16 - 14:44:48
18:39:09 <fort3hlulz> Isn't that exactly what I said?
18:39:14 <fort3hlulz> Or am I missing something?
18:40:18 <fort3hlulz> sarang maybe you can clarify
18:40:33 <fort3hlulz> I always thought RingCT was used to describe both ring sigs and CT, and how the combination is used in Monero
18:40:55 <sarang> The terminology is a bit wishy-washy
18:41:31 <sarang> but generally, I take "RingCT" to refer to the use of multidimensional ring signatures for signer and amount commitment purposes
18:41:54 <sarang> I don't really like the term, or "CT" to refer to amount commitments
18:42:33 <fort3hlulz> So the best way to describe the combination of ring sigs and confidential transactions is to describe them separately, not together as RingCT?
18:42:50 <fort3hlulz> The implication on Reddit is that RingCT is ONLY the amount hiding portion
18:43:17 <fort3hlulz> In my mind RingCT = Ring Signatures (Ring) + Confidential Transactions (CT)
18:43:19 <sarang> I replied to the comment
18:43:20 <fort3hlulz> Thus RingCT
18:43:23 <fort3hlulz> thanks
18:43:25 <sarang> I don't think it's a big deal at all
18:44:00 <sarang> The Monero protocol uses a multidimensional ring signature construction to obfuscate both the transaction signer (which is itself a one-time address) and the committed amount
18:44:14 <sarang> I don't think it really matters what you call it in this particular case
18:44:23 <fort3hlulz> sweet
18:44:36 <fort3hlulz> Wanted to be sure I wasn't confusing people by using RingCT to describe both ring sigs and CT
18:44:43 <sarang> You can't do committed amounts in the protocol (as currently implemented) without the use of multidimensional ring signatures
18:44:56 <sarang> it just doesn't work like that; they're deeply intertwined
18:46:51 <fort3hlulz> Maybe this is clearer to break them out:
18:46:51 <fort3hlulz> b.	Ring Signatures: this technology hides which output is being spent among (currently) 10 others. This requires no coordination (unlike CoinJoin) and happens entirely via the protocol itself.
18:46:51 <fort3hlulz> c.	Confidential Transactions: this technology hides all amounts sent and received on-chain using special commitments that verify amounts when creating a transaction.
18:46:57 <sarang> I disagree
18:47:05 <sarang> They aren't separable in the way the protocol implements them
18:47:17 <sarang> The amount commitments are literally part of the ring signature construction
18:47:31 <fort3hlulz> Oh
18:47:37 <fort3hlulz> so then is the original a better description:
18:47:37 <fort3hlulz> b.	RingCT: this technology hides all amounts sent and received on-chain, as well as hides which output is actually being spent among (currently) 10 others. This requires no coordination (unlike CoinJoin) and happens entirely via the protocol itself.
18:47:59 <sarang> Every input to the ring signature is both a signing public key and an amount commitment, with some extra algebra applied to make the amount balancing work properly
18:48:12 <sarang> That's a reasonable description, sure
18:48:38 <sarang> FWIW the person replying to you appears to be trying to separate them
18:48:44 <sarang> Which is not how the Monero protocol works
18:49:09 <sarang> That being said, the result _is_ that you get both signer ambiguity and amount hiding
18:49:28 <fort3hlulz> yeah that was my understanding, although I didn't know they were technically so intertwined
18:49:38 <fort3hlulz> Just thought it was a combinatory name for simplicity
18:49:44 <sarang> Yeah, consistent terminology is not a strong suit of this project by any means
18:49:45 <fort3hlulz> But good to know theres even more reason they go together :)
18:49:46 <sarang> :(
18:49:58 <sarang> Nope, tightly intertwined
18:50:00 <fort3hlulz> It's made learning technical terminology... interesting lol
18:50:08 <sarang> ikr
18:50:28 <sarang> I've tried pushing for some changes, but so many things are "baked in" historically at this point
18:50:32 <sarang> it might just cause more confusion :/
18:50:41 <sarang> e.g. I _hate_ the term "output"
18:50:45 <sarang> hate it hate it hate it
18:50:47 <fort3hlulz> I think it would be fine if there was a clear notice of the change/editing of old docs etc
18:50:55 <fort3hlulz> heh why do you hate output?
18:50:57 <fort3hlulz> Instead of Key Image?
18:51:01 <sarang> no
18:51:05 <sarang> key images are different
18:51:12 <sarang> The problem is that outputs become possible inputs etc.
18:51:20 <sarang> Zcash uses the term "note" which I like much better
18:51:55 <sarang> but this is not the hill to die on =p
18:52:07 <fort3hlulz> If you had to choose one term to change in Monero what would it be
18:52:09 <fort3hlulz> I'm curious
18:52:16 <fort3hlulz> s/had to/could
18:52:17 <monerobux> fort3hlulz meant to say: If you could choose one term to change in Monero what would it be
18:53:13 <jwinterm> piconero --> tacoshi
18:53:31 <fort3hlulz> lol
18:53:45 <fort3hlulz> I've just started referring to every amount as general "monero"
18:53:50 <sarang> I don't like "output" or "RingCT" or "CT" or "key images"
18:53:56 <fort3hlulz> e.g. #StackMonero etc.
18:54:05 <fort3hlulz> <sarang> I don't like "output" or "RingCT" or "CT" or "key images" <- I said one XD
18:54:12 <sarang> But I also don't want to confuse the everloving hell out of everyone
18:54:21 <sarang> "linking tags" is more commonly used in the literature
18:54:31 <sarang> IIRC I did use that in the Triptych and Arcturus papers
18:54:34 <sarang> maybe in CLSAG
18:54:35 <fort3hlulz> literally never heard that term
18:54:37 <sarang> too many papers, heh
18:54:45 <sarang> It's moreso in academic papers
18:56:21 <fort3hlulz> TIL
18:56:49 <sarang> But again, there's a real cost to trying to change commonly-understood terms
18:57:08 <sarang> It'd need to be offset by an increase in clarity etc.
18:57:26 <sgp_> I agree most of these terms SUCK
18:57:37 <sgp_> "outputs" is stupid
18:58:11 <sgp_> even "container" is better
18:58:42 <sarang> I'm using "note" in a new Arcturus security model
18:58:52 <sarang> It makes the security model much more clear
19:00:57 <sgp_> I wish there was a single word that meant disposable or single-use container
19:01:29 <sgp_> though even that's sorta confusing, since are they really only single-use with decoy selection?
19:05:04 <sarang> Yeah, problem is there's not a great analogy for how this stuff works
19:05:13 <sarang> They're all approximations of some sort
19:05:25 <sarang> and even the literature isn't terribly consistent on this stuff
19:06:13 <jwinterm> why is output bad?
19:06:27 <sarang> I think it doesn't do a good job of capturing how it's used
19:06:46 <sarang> fort3hlulz: FWIW this is one reason I like referring to "the Monero protocol"
19:06:47 <jwinterm> I guess it doesn't really work as well as it does with bitcoin
19:06:57 <sarang> right
19:07:10 <sarang> but again, it's a pretty established term now
19:07:26 <sarang> I tried to change it with one of the MRL preprints, but it was not well received :D
19:07:39 <sarang> I do try to use "linking tag" instead of "key image" in papers
19:07:45 <sarang> because nobody knows what "key images" is supposed to mean
19:07:53 <sarang> whereas "linking tag" is waaaaay more clear
19:08:10 <sarang> Even the use of "ring" for "anonymity set" is a poor choice of wording
19:08:22 <sarang> "ring" refers to the particular structure of LSAG-type signatures
19:08:31 <sarang> "anonymity set" is far more descriptive and useful
19:14:23 <sarang> fort3hlulz: the Monero protocol uses cryptographic constructions like linkable ring signatures, one-time addresses, and Pedersen commitments together in a way that provides signer ambiguity, recipient privacy, and amount hiding
19:14:24 <sarang> bam
19:14:38 <sarang> I don't think there's a particularly good reason to keep using the "stealth addresses + ring sigs + CT" nomenclature
19:14:44 <sarang> it's the Monero protocol
19:15:50 <sarang> Heck, Triptych keeps _exactly_ the same stuff for one-time addresses and Pedersen commitments, but replaces the existing LRS with a ZKP-based LRS construction, to the same effect
19:16:20 <sarang> So I assure you, the terminology can get as crazy as we like =p
19:18:22 <sarang> Notably, I want to stop this idea that "ring signature vs ZKP" is the same as "limited vs full anonymity set"
19:18:34 <sarang> Arcturus uses a ZKP construction for limited anonymity, for example (as do other constructions too)
19:19:07 <sarang> Thank you for listening to this episode of "Sarang Complains About Terminology"
19:19:10 <sarang> tune in next time
19:19:15 * sarang shows himself out