00:28:09 <rehrar> Can we just have Signal not use phone numbers and all use Signal please? Thanks.
00:28:27 <rehrar> There is way too many apps.
01:08:42 <Isthmus> Check out Session messenger. Fork of Signal with Loki (cool fork of Monero) under the hood
01:10:29 <Isthmus> (I started testing it a few months ago)
01:25:31 <Isthmus> If you wanna test, hmu at 052e64db7c7eb5c891c7df4ea0005f7af00b1ede469478befb8f5939de58832d3a
05:10:05 <fluffypony> https://twitter.com/fluffypony/status/1281090542198292480
05:10:17 <fluffypony> re: Blockonomy's ratings
05:23:45 <niocbrrrrrr> something something opinion something something facts
12:32:17 <sgp_> Isthmus: I tried Session a few months ago and it was riddled with bugs
12:32:50 <fungible[m]> 30
13:16:09 -xmr-pr- [meta] SarangNoether opened issue #483: Research meeting: 15 July 2020 @ 17:00 UTC
13:16:09 -xmr-pr- > https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/483
13:19:28 <sarang> good bot
13:48:10 <sgp_> Reminder that there is no community meeting this Saturday. It's the following Saturday
13:51:11 <msvb-lab> We will take communities place at the table, by having a village meeting instead. And we will stick out our tongues.
14:00:43 -xmr-pr- [meta] michaesc opened issue #484: Monero Village Meeting: 11 July 2020, 18:00 UTC
14:00:43 -xmr-pr- > https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/484
14:12:58 <hyc> would pushing for adoption by sex workers be a negative thing, reinforcing the "monero = crime" memes?
14:13:04 <hyc> https://twitter.com/SWAIIreland/status/1281208732836343809
14:13:22 <hyc> they seem to have similar problems with banking as marijuana businesses do
14:14:21 <hyc> also, without a fully circular economy, would it even help?
14:17:08 <dEBRUYNE> I guess it is a bit different, as sex work is legalized in quite a few countries in Europe
14:18:51 <Mumuks[m]> <xmrscott[m] "My money would be likely somethi"> Riot for Android is releasing the new client soon. It is in beta right now in the playstore.
14:19:13 <Mumuks[m]> What else do you find rough in Matrix/Riot for tour family?
14:20:13 <hyc> dEBRUYNE: good point, it's not about crime, it's about an overbearing banking system
14:20:36 <hyc> unfortunately for the funds to be usable, they need to be able to pay Drs and other expenses in fiat
14:27:11 <Mumuks[m]> <hyc "unfortunately for the funds to b"> How realistic is to claim the monero come from some online service, and not disclose sex work? For justifying the funds in the exchange
14:28:31 <hyc> good question. seems to me that ought to be easy to do, dunno
14:38:25 <Mumuks[m]> Of course, ideally you want a circular economy where you don't need fiat, but that will take a while and until then we need to be chasing niches with a way to convert to fiat
14:39:17 <hyc> If these people can't get bank accounts I don't know how to help them
14:39:44 <hyc> I mean, assume they start getting paid in XMR, either rom donation drives or from clients
14:40:04 <hyc> then they need to use some exchanger, instant, DE, or otherwise, to get back to fiat
14:40:27 <hyc> but unless they're doing in-person, or people are sending cash thru the mail, they can't get it back to fiat in their pocket
14:54:20 <sgp_> hyc: imo it's best to target these campaigns in jurisdictions where it is legal
15:01:09 <hyc> fair enouh
15:04:47 <sech1> wiki says it's legal in Ireland but they have problems yet (???)
15:05:20 <sgp_> I know sex work is a somewhat political issue here in the US, where some people think it should be legal
15:11:14 <midipoet> sech1: in Ireland i think they decriminalised the supping of sex work
15:11:23 <midipoet> *supply
15:11:33 <midipoet> but the buying of "services" remains illegal
15:12:09 <midipoet> this was an "ethical issue" regarding policing, the law, and continual harming the vulnerable, etc
15:12:32 <hyc> yep
15:14:35 <bemore> legalization of sex work has been shown again and again to dramatically improve the lives of everyone involved
15:16:25 <bemore> however, there is a difference between enabling a "dark network" and lobbying for a humanitarian cause
15:20:07 <bemore_> ... ctrl+z is not undo, ctrl+z is not undo
15:21:52 <bemore_> I've briefly talked with some people from the Outreach group before, they seemed very interested on being completely unconnected to any sort of political cause
15:22:34 <bemore_> I think that's a mistake since this foundation of this project is on censorship, things are typically censored for political reasons
15:22:46 <hyc> I suppose there's a risk of being on the wrong side of a power play
15:22:48 <bemore_> but fwiw, I would strongly support an Outreach effort that had a goal of improving sex worker rights
15:23:44 <hyc> anyway, I have reached out to this organization, speaking as an individual
15:24:14 <hyc> and in general, I think that's the best way to go - people reach out as individuals, not as sanctioned representatives of any workgroup
15:28:10 <bemore_> I guess I'm still catching up to the kind of things that are in place here. I'm just imaging a group of people doing work on a central topic.
15:28:38 <bemore_> collaboration is typically helpful
15:41:53 <bemore_> if anyone is interested, this is a good review: http://www.trivihal-positivo.es/COLECTIVOS/prostitucion/Sexwork%20%20Harm%20Reduction%20LANCET.pdf
15:55:00 <hyc> cool thx for link
16:26:52 <sarang> I assume there should eventually be a blog post about the CLSAG audit results?
16:27:18 <selsta> yes
16:27:40 <sarang> I can write one up
16:28:30 <sarang> There were many suggestions for the paper, but none that resulted in security problems or changes to the implementation
16:28:55 <sarang> and I've since updated the paper with improved security model and proofs to address those suggestions
16:28:56 <dEBRUYNE> Will the reviewers also write a blog post, or simply an elaborate report will be published?
16:29:06 <dEBRUYNE> Regardless, I think it will be beneficial to have a short blog-post on our website
16:29:09 <sarang> The reviewers will provide us (and OSTIF) with a final report
16:29:23 <sarang> OSTIF typically publishes their own blog post too, which would presumably be coordinated to be at the same time as ours
16:30:09 <sarang> The overall conclusion is that the CLSAG construction is secure and suitable for the use case, and implemented well
16:31:03 <dEBRUYNE> Ok cool
16:31:16 <dEBRUYNE> I guess next steps are to finalize the pull request and start working on the next major release
16:31:22 <dEBRUYNE> + a scheduled protocol upgrade date
16:31:30 <sarang> We still need Ledger/Trezor support
16:31:37 <sarang> I'm reaching out again today to inquire about that
16:31:50 <sarang> Upgrading without that support would cause a lot of headaches
16:32:04 <sarang> IMO having testnet available for that for a while will be essential
16:32:12 <selsta> wasn’t Ledger / Trezor support already worked on?
16:32:18 <sarang> being worked on
16:32:26 <sarang> But they have their own timelines and processes
16:32:26 <selsta> ok
16:32:47 <sarang> Fortunately there are no code changes needed that would affect their existing work
16:34:13 <sarang> The only code suggestions are optional and informational, and TBH don't really seem worth it
16:34:28 <sarang> which is a great problem to have :)
16:34:47 <sarang> and all the preprint proof updates have been completed and posted to IACR already
16:35:16 <sarang> They did recommend continuing to implement unit and fuzz testing, but that's something that can always be improved
16:35:25 <sarang> and there weren't any specific suggestions on that front
16:36:21 <sarang> Anyway, I assume their final report will be ready within a few days; there were some misunderstandings that they are updating so the report is accurate
16:36:25 <sarang> just minor things
16:41:10 <dEBRUYNE> sarang: Yeah that essentially is part of the 'start working on the next major release' part
16:41:25 <dEBRUYNE> We need to communicate with wallet providers for a timeline that gives them sufficient time to upgrade
16:41:32 <sarang> for sure
16:41:49 <sarang> This is a pretty big update, so IMO no need to rush things
16:42:01 <sarang> Give plenty of time for testing and implementation work
16:42:52 <dEBRUYNE> I guess end of the year might be a realistic date
16:43:19 <sarang> Once I hear back from the Ledger and Trezor teams, that could give a much better timeline
16:43:29 <sarang> since that's development beyond just "update your wallet software"
16:43:40 <sarang> I wish there were a better way to communicate with major ecosystem players
16:43:45 <sarang> like the major exchanges, etc.
16:46:01 <sarang> My only regret is not giving CLSAG a cooler name :/
16:51:15 <sarang> Has there been any talk about the release name?
16:53:01 <sarang> "Oxygen Octans"
16:53:37 <sarang> The idea of an octant being a fraction of a circle seems nicely in line with cutting transaction size and time down significantly
16:58:06 <rehrar> Bro
16:59:59 <rehrar> End of year? That's so sad. Maybe October or something.
17:00:24 <rehrar> Monero does things so cautiously. It's good, but it's frustrating in some ways cuz we have such good stuff. :P
17:03:16 <selsta> I think it will be earlier than EOY
17:05:44 <niocbrrrrrr> Oxygen Ogma
17:05:48 <niocbrrrrrr> Named after Ogma, a deity in Celtic mythology
17:06:00 <niocbrrrrrr> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_149026
17:06:00 <monerobux> [WIKIPEDIA] HD 149026 | "HD 149026, also named Ogma , is a yellow subgiant star approximately 250 light-years from the Sun in the constellation of Hercules.  An extrasolar planet (designated HD 149026 b, later named Smertrios) is believed to orbit the star...."
17:11:43 <dEBRUYNE> It was a cautious target :p
18:17:14 <rehrar> dEBRUYNE: to be extra safe you should have said 2030
18:18:13 <dEBRUYNE> ;p
18:23:08 <xmrpow> Have you guys thought about implementing some features like the incentivized onion routing protocol like in Loki? Personally I like the idea of Loki trying to integrate several privacy technologies in one ecosystem(tor,i2p,signal) , but I dont like some of their core principles.
18:24:37 <niocbrrrrrr> https://lewd.pics/p/?i=2aWq.jpg
18:27:44 <sgp_> rehrar: any updates on your job accomplishments, tasks, or whatever?
18:28:11 <rehrar> Haven't started writing yet. Needing to talk with core about a few details.
18:29:03 <sgp_> what have you worked on this week?
18:30:39 <rehrar> BackHub, new branding for the Monero Village (emphasizing the digital), starting to touch up the site, working with Doug on something new and fun that we're going to reveal here in the next couple of days or so
18:32:21 <rehrar> I took Sunday off too.
18:32:39 <rehrar> Maybe I should upload time sheets.
18:37:11 <selsta> I don’t think you should upload time sheets :P
18:37:24 <selsta> But a broad summary at the end of month would be appreciated.
18:37:32 <selsta> Kinda similar to other CCS.
18:38:13 <sgp_> I like sarang's weekly updates during the MRL meetings
18:38:33 <dsc_> barking up the wrong tree here, take it up with core and #leaverehraralone :D
18:38:34 <sarang> Aw shucks, thanks sgp_
18:39:09 <sgp_> as opposed to #watchrehrarwhilehesleeps coalition
18:39:19 <dsc_> <3
18:39:25 <sgp_> lol
18:39:56 <rehrar> O__o
18:40:15 <rehrar> I'll be honest, I won't be tripping over myself to report to you all every week. Monthly sounds fine.
18:40:23 <rehrar> But I do as the core commands
18:40:35 <dsc_> tell'em rehrar
18:45:21 -xmr-pr- [css-proposals] v1docq47 opened pull request #154: v1docq47: video creation / translations into russian (august 2020 - ja...
18:45:21 -xmr-pr- > https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/154
18:47:40 <rehrar> guys wait
18:47:47 <rehrar> we're doing all of the wrong things
18:47:50 <rehrar> Monero Tik Tok
18:47:54 <rehrar> who wants to run?
18:48:05 <niocbrrrrrr> tik tok is banned
18:49:06 <rehrar> gen Z weeps in the streets
18:54:54 <camthegeek> AS THE CORE COMMANDS!
19:16:38 <needmoney90> rehrar we already have a side project
19:16:50 <needmoney90> D:
19:17:02 <rehrar> That's what I was talking about.
19:57:02 <xmrscott[m]> :O
20:51:15 <Guest67150> I found a temporary laptop while i wait for a more stable one. Tomorrow i'll set it up and maybe i'll be able to be back in few days, even if with a limited setup.
20:53:41 <rehrar> Introducing Monero.FM!
20:53:44 <rehrar> https://pad.riseup.net/p/r.84da6ac3d21ffa2b18938fe78d5a4ee2
20:54:01 <rehrar> domain doesn't take you anywhere yet. :P
20:54:06 <rehrar> read the pad
20:58:44 <wowario[m]> why two licenses? wouldn't SoundExchange be enough?
20:59:00 <needmoney90>  Performance license is different from an umbrella license
20:59:06 <needmoney90> You need both :/
21:01:15 <needmoney90> > The royalties SoundExchange collects and distributes are for the featured artist and the sound recording copyright owner. ASCAP, BMI and SESAC collect and distribute royalties for the songwriter, composer and publisher for the musical composition.
21:01:26 <needmoney90> Music licensing is whack
21:01:38 <needmoney90> gotta pay the artist, recording copyright owner, songwriter, composer, and publisher
21:01:50 <needmoney90> and from what I can find that can't be done through one entity
21:02:14 <needmoney90> so double license.
21:03:23 <needmoney90> rehrar and I are very new at this, so if you know any way around that (that costs less) I'm all ears
21:03:34 <needmoney90> I think there are companies that bundle all of that, but they charge an extra fee
21:08:14 <wowario[m]> have you looked at https://live365.com
21:09:11 <needmoney90> We haven't
21:09:32 <wowario[m]> "By broadcasting with Live365, your station is covered for transmissions in the USA, Canada, and the UK"
21:12:01 <needmoney90> A few concerns
21:12:06 <needmoney90> bitrate is low, which sucks
21:12:10 <needmoney90> the TLH is also concerning
21:12:21 <needmoney90> low package says unlimited listeners, yet you only get 1500 TLH per month
21:12:28 <sarang> TLH?
21:12:32 <needmoney90> total listener hours
21:12:47 <sarang> Heh, each of your bazillion listeners gets half a second
21:12:48 <needmoney90> at 720 hours in a month, that gives us just over 2 concurrent users before we start hitting overages
21:13:01 <needmoney90> Which, as you can imagine, concerns me more than a little.
21:13:13 <sarang> So a bad actor could cause overage fees
21:13:14 <needmoney90> Their fee schedules dont really point out that fact
21:13:15 <sarang> Not good
21:13:24 <needmoney90> its just like "hey $70/month"
21:13:25 <sarang> Heh, I'm sure they don't want to remind people of overages...
21:13:27 <needmoney90> "1500 TLH"
21:13:34 <needmoney90> "unlimited listeners!"
21:13:41 <needmoney90> then I have to google for wtf TLH is
21:13:44 <sarang> It's like ISPs... "fastest throughput!" *coughtinydatacap*
21:13:47 <asymptotically> needp2pstreaming90
21:13:48 <needmoney90> because they sure as heck don't mention it on that page
21:14:13 <needmoney90> So yeah, am I reading that page wrong or is this live365 thing fishing for overage fees
21:14:23 <wowario[m]> https://support.live365.com/hc/en-us/articles/115004931727-What-is-TLH-
21:14:50 <needmoney90> That appears to confirm my suspicions
21:15:28 <needmoney90> for $200/month we can have a whopping 8 concurrent users
21:15:39 <needmoney90> before worrying about overages
21:15:43 <needmoney90> ._.
21:16:43 <wowario[m]> that really sucks
21:17:25 <needmoney90> At $200/month for 8 concurrent users though, that starts approaching what we were looking for anyways (in costs) annually
21:17:39 <needmoney90> well. For one year. Hopefully its self sustaining by then.
21:17:56 <sarang> Maybe this is why you don't see many new radio stations...
21:18:10 <needmoney90> Well yeah licensing is a bitch
21:18:49 <needmoney90> also we have a distinct advantage in that we have no personnel costs
21:19:12 <needmoney90> even $10/hour gets pricey for radio stations if you've got to support it
21:19:18 <needmoney90> we're kinda able to run barebones
21:19:56 <sarang> I remember reading about how Pandora was operating, and the crazy costs for different types and classifications of streaming
21:20:01 <sarang> it seemed nutso
21:20:16 <needmoney90> We're running single-channel non-interactive
21:20:22 <needmoney90> or pseudo-noninteractive, at least
21:20:25 <sarang> heh
21:20:32 <needmoney90> so our costs are much lower
21:25:12 <dsc_> ehm, just host it anonymously from russia
21:25:52 <asymptotically> dsc_: gary will do it in north korea. he even guarantees 6 nines of uptime! (0.0999999%)
21:26:13 <needmoney90> And associate it with the pure name of Monero?
21:26:15 <needmoney90> I wouldnt dare'
21:26:19 <needmoney90> gotta be above board
21:27:24 <needmoney90> So, any thoughts here wowario? Either on still considering live365, double licensing, or otherwise
21:27:40 <needmoney90> or anyone else for that matter
21:27:52 <needmoney90> once we've got a bit of feedback we can put it up as a proposed CCS for more discussion
22:33:44 <bemore> Spotify is provides an extremely good service for $15/month if you're looking for a comprehensive library with ad-free stream.
22:46:19 <dsc_> :o
23:21:49 <needmoney90> bemore: https://support.spotify.com/us/account_payment_help/account_help/use-spotify-in-my-bar-restaurant-store-school-etc/
23:21:58 <needmoney90> Spotify is personal use only, can't rehost the music
23:22:12 <needmoney90> It does not count as having the rights to the music.
23:45:06 <bemore> Public Broadcast Radio, crypto style? take that $1,300 music aquisition cost and pay people for giving talks, play classical in the downtime
23:45:19 <bemore> i see potential, but I like my spotify :P
23:45:50 <sarang> Welcome to "Deep Dive Into Security Models" with your host, sarang
23:49:51 <niocbrrrrrr> ^^^^
23:50:11 <sarang> Can't sleep? Listen to "Deep Dive Into Security Modeles"
23:50:13 <sarang> with your host
23:50:15 <sarang> sarang
23:50:15 <niocbrrrrrr> not like we have a lack of music options
23:51:14 <niocbrrrrrr> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IvV5Z0wFR4
23:51:15 <monerobux> [ YouTube ] - www.youtube.com
23:52:52 <sarang> It'd be fun to give a super basic talk on the idea of security proofs
23:53:13 <sarang> and how you can wrap algorithms to break known hardness assumptions
23:53:18 <sarang> The whole idea is so freaking interesting
23:53:21 <sarang> even without the mathy details
23:53:50 <niocbrrrrrr> great for sleeping are lectures by Leonard Susskind, not because he is boring but instead his voice
23:59:32 <sarang> I used to listen to a podcast called Sleep With Me where a librarian with a super soothing voice would just talk about random inconsequential things for like an hour
23:59:51 <sarang> He called himself your "borefriend"