00:01:16 <shillo> wen xmr twitter emoji tho?
00:02:11 <niocbrrrrrr> :(
01:53:20 <xmrscott[m]> when a whale chucks 50k at jack
07:30:05 <streamerx[m]> Here's a client for Ethereum and Dash for mining bandwidth in a mesh network. Is Monero planning to add bandwidth mining to stay in the game? https://github.com/althea-net
08:34:49 <rdymac> streamerx[m], dash? I don’t think it “mines”. User puts ETH, Dai, xDai in their balance of their Althea-Mesh router, other Althea-Mesh router relayers sell data/bandwidth to the user. Maybe you mean the relayer “is mining” by providing the relay service
08:35:19 <rdymac> We at Locha Mesh are looking into adding RPC-Pay for users to pay other nodes for services (remote monerod, Internet gateway, Electrum Server...), so Monero will stay in te game for sure :)
08:38:19 <streamerx[m]> Yes it doesn't "mine" the same way as PoW,  but the term is used for marketing purposes so that people immediately understand that this data process creates value.
08:39:06 <streamerx[m]> "mining" is like any data process that creates value
08:41:19 <streamerx[m]>  * Yes it doesn't "mine" the same way as PoW,  but the term is used vaguely for marketing purposes so that people immediately understand that this data process creates value.
13:52:15 <sgp_> Coffee Chat in about 3 hours
15:50:00 <streamerx[m]> Monero might not be optimal crypto for mining bandwidth. It should probably be more scarce with a fixed rate to make it more worthwhile for users. but it should have the same level of privacy and security as Monero
15:50:27 <streamerx[m]>  * Monero might not be thee optimal crypto for mining bandwidth. It should probably be more scarce with a fixed rate to make it more worthwhile for users. but it should have the same level of privacy and security as Monero
15:54:01 <hyc> sounds like nonsense when we already have rpc-pay
16:01:08 <streamerx[m]> ok so how much can Monero reward for a bandwidth relay?
16:02:20 <hyc> rpc-pay prices are set by the node owner
16:03:17 <streamerx[m]> Sure but there has to be a standard market price for bandwidth. You know it's not really free even though Youtube delivers it for free.
16:04:02 <hyc> no, there does not have to be a standard market price. that's what decentralization means.
16:05:02 <streamerx[m]> Ok, but there has to be a start price which would then fluctuate according to demand and supply
16:06:07 <niocbrrrrrr> streamerx[m]: you are still having this conversation?
16:06:45 <streamerx[m]> I just started. This is the new thing boomers
16:07:07 <niocbrrrrrr> you went on for like 12 hrs in the wownero channel
16:07:11 <streamerx[m]> You know like the next big thing
16:07:43 <streamerx[m]> There's always a next big thing. I'm sorry to say that PoW was like the thing in 2010-ties
16:08:24 <dsc_> *ignores*
16:08:40 <streamerx[m]> <niocbrrrrrr "you went on for like 12 hrs in t"> So you stalk me now? Are you my fanboy?
16:08:45 <niocbrrrrrr> how can there be a next big thing when nothing can replace cats
16:09:41 <niocbrrrrrr> don't think so highly of yourself, it is a fatal flaw in humans
16:09:43 <niocbrrrrrr> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8GA2w-qrcg
16:09:44 <monerobux> [ YouTube ] - www.youtube.com
16:09:49 <streamerx[m]> There is always a next big thing. This is what the boomers said about Bitcoin too in 2010.
16:10:46 <streamerx[m]> "Bitcoin is a hoax" they said. "Bitcoin will never be worth 20 dollars" They said
16:12:33 <streamerx[m]> And now someone dares to point out that Bandwidth is worth money, even though Youtube delivers videos to you for free.
16:14:03 <streamerx[m]> <niocbrrrrrr "don't think so highly of yoursel"> I got a great answer from Lochamesh which is working on this same thing. So do you mind not disturbing developers?
16:14:08 <sgp_> vikrants fort3hlulz rehrar jwinterm Coffee Chat in 45 mins
16:15:11 <sgp_> not sure what's going on here but let's keep this civil here
16:15:44 <niocbrrrrrr> comment was about me stalking you, sorry for not being clear about that
16:17:47 <streamerx[m]> <niocbrrrrrr "comment was about me stalking yo"> Dude what do you want from me?
16:19:55 <hyc> bandwidth isn't free, but it's paid for on both ends of a connection.
16:20:07 <niocbrrrrrr> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IvV5Z0wFR4
16:20:07 <monerobux> [ YouTube ] - www.youtube.com
16:20:09 <hyc> youtube pays to connect their servers to the internet
16:20:20 <hyc> consumers pay ISPs to get their own access to the internet
16:20:29 <hyc> so, both endpoints are already paid for.
16:21:36 <streamerx[m]> Yes, they are paid for only so that these big corporations can secure their market position
16:22:04 <rehrar> I'm taking today off if that's ok with everyone.
16:22:13 <streamerx[m]> This is why people think that delivering bandwidth doesn't cost anything
16:22:17 <rehrar> I'll keep an eye on the Defcon meeting.
16:22:47 <hyc> no, people don't think bandwidth doesn't cost anything. they know they're already paying for it.
16:23:04 <hyc> but why pay twice for it?
16:23:49 <sgp_> yeah f paying twice for it lol
16:23:58 <streamerx[m]> Mining bandwidth is when the operator pays you
16:24:14 <streamerx[m]> You should not pay for that  They should pay you
16:24:28 <hyc> they have the same payment structure on their end of the network
16:24:57 <sgp_> xmrscott[m]: reminder for the coffee chat in 30
16:25:36 <streamerx[m]> I'm talking about the Proof-of-Bandwidth algorithm where relays are rewarded
16:26:30 <streamerx[m]> For example when Locha mesh wants to reward their nodes
16:28:13 <streamerx[m]> You see they are not using Monero on the centralized internet, because it can not be decentralized if you are using a centralized ISP
16:28:54 <xmrscott[m]> rehrar: Enjoy the holiday w/ your fam,   :)
16:30:31 <streamerx[m]> It's also not private if you are using a centralized ISP because they can screen record whatever you are doing with your devise.
16:30:57 <hyc> screen record? get real
16:31:45 <streamerx[m]> Yes it's real. They can do that legally now without a warrant though your ISP
16:31:58 <streamerx[m]>  * Yes it's real. They can do that legally now without a warrant through your ISP
16:33:20 <hyc> better put down your tinfoil hat. nobody can read the contents of your screen just from your network connection
16:33:35 <streamerx[m]> They have always done that without permission, but this year they passed a law that it's legal.
16:34:01 <hyc> *ignore*
16:34:02 <streamerx[m]> Haven't you ever listened to Edward Snowden?
16:39:18 <azy> isp doesn't have access to your screen lol, just whatever you request or are sent from the internet
16:39:23 <xmrscott[m]> Snowden while his actions are noble isn't knowledgeable on all things. See: His recommendation of Zcash and an OS that was in alpha stages and bit the dust from lack of interest by devs
16:39:47 <azy> which is likely encrypted*
16:39:48 <dsc_> See: his willingness to work at NSA
16:40:10 <sgp_> if anyone else needs a coffee chat invite lmk
16:41:14 <streamerx[m]> ok well anyway they can check your browser history through the ISP and no crypto is honestly decentralized as long as you are running it using a centralized ISP
16:42:29 <bemore> sgp_: invite to where? my first time attending
16:42:50 <sgp_> bemore: https://youtu.be/MfN1GkkiTtg
16:43:03 <bemore> ty
16:45:49 <streamerx[m]> Snowden endorses both Monero and Zcash. According to a speech he held last year, he likes Zcash more because Moneros "management sucks"
16:46:13 <sgp_> there was some weird comment like that which we don't really know how to use
16:46:17 <hyc> Snowden was a pencil pusher, not a technologist
16:47:18 <hyc> the fact that 99+% of zcash transactions are fully traceable shows how stupid Snowden's endorsements are
16:47:22 <streamerx[m]> but he knows about how NSA taps into your devises
16:47:30 <xmrscott[m]> And yet Chainalaysis et al are now demasking Zcash tx while they aren't for Monero /shrug
16:47:36 <streamerx[m]> and they get you through the ISP
16:47:47 <sgp_> Chainalysis/Elliptic is a topic of conversation for the chat :)
16:48:33 <streamerx[m]> This is why mesh network is essential and why we have to invent ways to get people into it
16:48:55 <sgp_> sure but maybe for marketing it's best not to make aggressive claims lol
16:49:28 <streamerx[m]> So how about a private, decentralized, secure and fast internet that pays you for being in it?
16:49:30 <sgp_> people talking about ways to get people typically talk in broad, sweeping claims
16:49:58 <streamerx[m]> I just want you guys to stop being Fed informants
16:50:11 <sgp_> lmao see comments like that
16:50:26 <sgp_> if you're that abrasive you're just going to annoy people here
16:50:38 <streamerx[m]> I'm correct
16:50:54 <streamerx[m]> What I say is true
16:51:01 <hyc> no, you're dreaming
16:51:06 <hyc> yes, mesh network is a good thing
16:51:12 <sgp_> well I'm asking you not to talk like that in this channel. If that makes me an informant in your eyes I don't care
16:51:15 <hyc> the rest of what you've spouted so far is nonsense
16:51:25 <streamerx[m]> I'm not dreaming. This exists already in many forms
16:51:45 <sgp_> in any case it's best to end this conversation
16:51:46 <hyc> only in your feverish imagination
16:51:48 <sgp_> it will go nowhere
16:51:52 <sgp_> so please stop
16:52:00 <dsc_> +b ETA ~1 hour
16:52:08 <streamerx[m]> No IPFS is doing it. Theta token is doing it.
16:52:14 <dsc_> (im psychic)
16:52:34 <streamerx[m]> Check out Althea net using Ethereum https://althea.net/
16:52:39 <sgp_> "it" =/ "locha mesh"
16:52:57 <streamerx[m]> Yes and Locha mesh using Bitcoin and Monero
16:52:58 <sgp_> these other topics you bring up here are not welcome though
16:53:10 <streamerx[m]> So there's already at least 4 projects going on
16:53:15 <sgp_> so participate while keeping the conversation focused or do not participate please
16:54:07 <streamerx[m]> Yes so thank you for contributing to this
16:54:08 <xmrscott[m]> Meshs are not magical bullets either. NYC meshnet technically still connects to a data center
16:54:27 <streamerx[m]> You are most welcome to work hard as well to achieve this
16:55:07 <streamerx[m]> It's nice to see so many volunteers here
16:55:22 <hyc> I was one of the advocates for Monero community to reach out to Locha Mesh. but you are doing a good job discredting this work.
16:55:59 <streamerx[m]> Who? How the hell could I know that?
16:56:13 <sgp_> xmrscott[m]: can you join the chat still?
16:56:13 <hyc> AFAIS the less you say here the betterm because your nonses isn't helping anyone
16:56:35 <xmrscott[m]> sgp_: Yes
16:56:37 <hyc> *AFAICS, better, nonsense
16:56:40 <sgp_> niiiiiice
16:56:45 <streamerx[m]> What nonsense? Maybe the problem is with your IQ
16:56:54 <niocbrrrrrr> haha
16:56:55 <sgp_> okay stop right here
16:56:57 <sgp_> no more
16:57:02 <sgp_> one more and there's a ban
16:57:19 <hyc> just ban him already
16:57:40 <streamerx[m]> who is this peace keeper lady?
16:58:07 <streamerx[m]> I see butthurt snowflake cunts are ruling here
16:58:22 <asymptotically> streamerx[m]: wasn't snowden just a server admin? nothing to do with crypto. he was just cool because out of all the people that saw the shit going on, he was the only one to speak out about it
16:58:29 <azy> yes its everyone else who is the issue
16:58:38 <asymptotically> so he might be a cool guy but i wouldn't pay any attention to his software recommendations :)
17:05:43 <dsc_> damn, 54 minutes off
17:05:57 <fort3hlulz> I can't make it this week, sorry guys
17:06:05 <fort3hlulz> Had a last minute thing come up
17:06:16 <fort3hlulz> To coffee chat I mean
17:19:13 <jwinterm> sgp_, link?
17:19:16 <jwinterm> sorry I'm late
17:19:32 <bemore> hyc: fwiw, I've seen you run a few people away from Monero with your... gruff nature. He dropped the c* bomb there at the end, so that kind of destroyed his ground... but, still, you're kinda' are hard on people
17:20:10 <hyc> I only speak here when there's BS flying
17:20:30 <hyc> driving idiots away is the point
17:20:31 <niocbrrrrrr> bemore: this isn't the first channel that he has been banned from
17:21:03 <bemore> well, as long as it's intentional :P
17:22:22 <dsc_> i heard my name on coffeechat
17:22:36 <dsc_> :o
17:23:20 <hyc> m currency symbol ₥
17:23:34 <hyc> esperanto currency symbol ₷
17:23:55 <hyc> U_20A5, U+20B7
17:25:10 <hyc> U+20BF bitcoin symbol ₿
17:25:52 <bemore> hyc: an unrelated question, one of your comments on /r/monero related to quantum resistance was something like, ~"the field moves at a snail's pace," so it's not an immediate concern. I was just curious if private research is a possible threat? If quantum computers are possible, wouldn't that be a military interest?
17:55:02 <niocbrrrrrr> spinny wheel on stream
17:55:32 <niocbrrrrrr> sgp_: ^^^ lost stream
18:05:47 <hyc> bemore: look at the TOP500 list of supercomputers. the top 10 all run on as much electricity as a small city would consume
18:06:04 <xmrscott[m]> Note for future self: U+20A5
18:06:12 <hyc> those are just the publicly known systems.
18:06:35 <hyc> so yes, it's very likely the military has even bigger, beefier supercomputers at its disposal
18:07:00 <hyc> and a quantum computer that's powerful enough to do anything useful will be even more power hungry
18:07:37 <hyc> none of that is practical today or in the next 10 years. probably not in the next 20 years.
18:07:54 <hyc> just like commercial fusion power has been "20 years away" for the past 50 years
18:10:01 <kinghat[m]> this guy thinks recent advancements make it likely that fusion isnt far off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2QaTyDJDEI
18:10:01 <monerobux> [ YouTube ] - www.youtube.com
18:10:12 <hyc> IMO, the first announcement to watch for would be production-scale room-temperature superconductors
18:11:30 <jwinterm> kinghat[m], I don't have a strong opinion, but there's definitely been people saying recent advances make it likely we'll have production power generation by fusion in the next 10-20 years for the last 50 or 60 years
18:12:04 <bemore> is someone watching for these things?
18:12:23 <needmoney90> Oh yeah fusion is a decade out
18:12:35 <needmoney90> ...has been the line for decades
18:12:36 <hyc> ... and always will be ;)
18:12:42 <niocbrrrrrr> soon™
18:12:58 <needmoney90> Hyc saw it :p
18:13:15 <needmoney90> I overslept :(
18:13:21 <needmoney90> I gotta stop passing out at 4
18:13:28 <needmoney90> It makes coffee chats....hard
18:13:33 <jwinterm> the same has been said about quantum computing as well https://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/the-case-against-quantum-computing
18:13:36 <kinghat[m]> ya and im not knowledgeable enough to know the truth but he actually does the experiments to show why.
18:14:05 <jwinterm> there's a good article along the same lines about fusion, I think from a guy at MIT, but I can't find it at the moment
18:14:19 <hyc> when someone announces they're building a pilot reactor, then it may be real
18:14:25 <hyc> it may also fail even at pilot stage...
18:16:13 <hyc> anyway, both fusion reactors and quantum computers require superconductors
18:16:31 <hyc> so, until I see that breakthrough, not gonna hold my breath on either
18:17:12 <kinghat[m]> jwinterm: im biased because i like the guys yt channel but he really doesnt seem like the kind of guy to "soon" something like fusion at every turn in technology. unless ive missed something.
18:17:21 <jwinterm> quantum not necessarily, there are other modes qubits can work, but yea the ones that exist now rely on superconductors
18:17:35 <jwinterm> I guess even fusion could in theory be done without it
18:17:42 <jwinterm> the sun does not use superconductors
18:17:48 <jwinterm> solar cells = fusion power
18:18:01 <hyc> the sun doesn't need to convert anything into electricity
18:18:51 <jwinterm> I don't know enough about it to know if laser powered fusion for power generation designs use superconductors
18:19:12 <bemore> what are the downsides to using a quantum resistant algorithm? I assume blockchain bloat?
18:19:40 <jwinterm> bemore, I think also verification becomes much more compute intensive
18:19:42 <hyc> computation cost
18:19:58 <hyc> that's the whole point...
18:20:22 <hyc> a quantum computer is supposed to be able to factor large primes faster than a classical computer. or solve logarithms faster
18:20:50 <hyc> so to run an algorithm on a classical computer that is difficult for a QC to break, it has to be multiple orders of magnitude harder for the classical comp too.
18:23:36 <hyc> instead of 4096-bit RSA you need like 1 terabyte keys. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/05/post-quantum_rs.html#c6753674
18:24:05 <hyc> everything about this is ludicrous for classical computers for the next 10 years at least
18:25:00 <bemore> not just bloat, but massive bloat? also a highly reduced number for possible transactions per second?
18:25:23 <hyc> and assuming that e.g. 10 years from now it becomes practical to run these algorithms on classical computers, that means QCs must be even more orders of magnitude more powerful to be worthwhile
18:25:52 <hyc> QC just isn't a realistic threat. probably not even within our lifetime.
18:27:33 <bemore> "the final multiplication of two 512 GB integers took 176,223 seconds in wall-clock time, using 3.166TB of RAM and 2.5 TB of swap storage." hahaha, okay, I'll read this one, ty for the link
18:29:10 <hyc> that's the scale of difficulty, when people talk about quantum-resistant algorithms. it's all a joke.
18:30:48 <hyc> in some ways it parallels our work on ASIC-resistance. to make something that ASICs can't accelerate, it has to also be hard for regular CPUs and GPUs.
19:18:21 <rdymac> xmrscott[m], NYC is sharing INTERNET, so they still depend on the Internet working or not being blocked
19:18:37 <rdymac> NYCMesh
19:43:53 <hyc> we need a constellation of cubesats
20:00:50 <rdymac> This Monday 6th, 20:00 UTC (1:00 pm Pacific Time) the #LochaMesh off-grid #Monero tx demo will take place:  https://twitter.com/Locha_io/status/1279097687921561601?s=20
20:08:45 <xmrscott[m]> <rdymac "xmrscott, NYC is sharing INTERNE"> Yes my point is more directed at the person in the room treating mesh as an end all just because something is mesh doesn't mean you've solved the ISP eavesdropping problem. In fact NYC Mesh network per FAQ is unencrypted and they look at headers.
20:25:13 <hyc> and it's still illegal to encrypt traffic on amateur radio in the US
20:25:17 <hyc> too bad
20:32:03 <kinghat[m]> "someone"
23:10:45 <rdymac> xmrscott[m], hyc , but you can encrypt data in the Locha Mesh bc we use the ISM bands that are unlicensed and encryption is allowed too
23:11:34 <rdymac> The ISP will not be needed in the future if there are enough Locha Mesh nodes to route messages and data through hops to its destination
23:13:57 <rdymac> Bandwidth will be higher in a year or two max, there will be way enough speed to do common things. Today (or in a few months) you may only be able to use it for messaging, transactions, and blocks sync; but that will change with the already existing advances in radio modules