01:57:38 <fort3hlulz> What are people's thoughts about having a Monero and Decred "fight night" on Reddit, similar to the AMAs/discussions we've hosted with PIVX (and others I think?) in the past?
01:58:29 <fort3hlulz> I'm chatting on Twitter with Checkmatey, a researcher for Decred who loves Monero, and I would love to see each community ask (and answer) hard questions about both protocols/projects.
02:33:44 <cassact[m]1> If one is pursuing truth, ideas must be tested in the forge of legitimate criticism. im all for it
02:39:13 <fort3hlulz> I like it :)
03:00:17 <gingeropolous> that would be interesting
03:04:23 <gingeropolous> in the conversations in my head, though, i feel like so many of ... thoughts on things are more philosophical. well, dunno if thats the right word.
03:05:17 <gingeropolous> but basically, there are some people that think PoS is secure, and there are some that don't. Maybe secure isn't the right word. Even if it is secure, its not permissionless.
03:05:31 <gingeropolous> well, both those i guess
03:07:25 <cassact[m]1> PoS is a pos protocal.
03:07:41 <cassact[m]1> (i cant be the first person to make that joke)
03:08:05 <cassact[m]1>  * (i know i cant be the first person to make that joke but whatever)
03:09:58 <gingeropolous> its just so interesting that so many ppl flock to the idea. that money should make more money, magically
03:13:46 <niocbrrrrrr> https://brrr.money/
03:22:02 <xmrscott[m]> Yes, I'm not against it, I'm just not sure if there would be much value. Monero would point to that one PoS academic paper that always gets referenced whose title escapes me, Decred would point to... something else?
04:54:27 <rehrar> https://zcs.zcoin.io/proposals/lelantusaudit.html
04:55:27 <rehrar> Zcoin is having their ZCS proposal for a Lelantus audit. For those of you who don't know, Zcoin is probably one of the other semi-legit coins in the space. Sarang and the Zcoin cryptographer review each other's stuff sometimes, and are generally friendly, and Lelantus is actually one of the other exciting privacy technologies of our time.
04:56:04 <rehrar> I have some XZC from when they paid me to make stickers. If any of you feels like you want to help push privacy forward by making a small donation to them, tell me how much and I'll donate the Zcoin and you can send me Monero.
06:17:10 <Inge-> wowario[m]: pretty sure privacy can be destroyed...
06:18:09 <Inge-> Maybe privacy can be denatured - irreversibly lost
08:22:11 <wowario[m]> fake death, move to vanuatu, live off grid > privacy restored
09:27:48 <xmrscott[m]> I mean, if you have no friends and family you care for I suppose it could work...
12:51:42 <fort3hlulz> Does anyone here use the Monero Discord? And if so, is this the right one? https://discord.gg/seUTmR
13:04:04 <fort3hlulz> Ah, looks like this is it: https://discordapp.com/invite/XVKK6hX
13:04:11 <fort3hlulz> Much more fleshed out then I realized :)
13:32:24 <Inge-> wowario[m]: speaking of the Quadriga ceo again?
13:33:28 <Inge-> fort3hlulz: re Decred - I'd be happy to get some clear information about that project. It is awfully difficult to pick up "at a glance" understanding of different projects in this space.
13:35:37 <fort3hlulz> Yeah, i think it would be a great chance for us to learn more about them and vice versa
15:54:52 <fort3hlulz> I've kicked off a #DidYouKnowMonero Twitter campaign to try and spread awareness about some core technical and non-technical features of Monero, would love to see more people pitch in and share things you find interesting and think people would want to know about Monero!
15:55:18 <sarang> Anything you'd like clarified about the technical side fort3hlulz?
15:55:25 <sarang> Happy to help
15:55:29 <sarang> (but am not on twitter)
15:55:38 <sarang> (and am not interested in joining...)
15:55:58 <fort3hlulz> Not off the top of my head at the moment, but if you have any particular topics/features you'd like me to share about feel free to ping me a list
15:56:09 <fort3hlulz> And I'll start building out a list to tweet daily/every few days
15:56:18 <fort3hlulz> (one item per epoch)
15:58:07 <sarang> Could have a general item about the focus on ongoing research into practical safe use of digital assets
15:59:05 <sarang> I appreciate how the project builds useful cryptographic tools, but also works hard to protect users with things like network-level protections, Dandelion++ relaying, research into safer output selection and transaction construction, etc.
15:59:21 <sarang> You can have the best transaction structure/protocol in the world, but people need to be able to use it safely
16:00:21 <sarang> The idea of "mandatory privacy" is also important; you don't have to choose between transparency and privacy; all transactions are (ideally; metadata is a thing) treated as consistently as possible, but users have options for disclosing information off-chain as they see fit
16:00:54 <sarang> And things like the Breaking Monero series highlight that researchers try to community clearly the limitations of Monero and digital assets in general
16:03:02 <sarang> Silly autocorrect...
16:03:06 <sarang> s/community/communicate/
16:03:07 <monerobux> sarang meant to say: And things like the Breaking Monero series highlight that researchers try to communicate clearly the limitations of Monero and digital assets in general
16:03:12 <sarang> good bot
16:30:21 <kinghat[m]> wowario: vanuatu kava second best kava.
16:45:27 -xmr-pr- [meta] SamsungGalaxyPlayer opened issue #475: Community Workgroup Meeting: 20 June 2020 17:00 UTC
16:45:27 -xmr-pr- > https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/475
17:37:15 <fort3hlulz> Thanks Sarang, adding those to my list :)
17:37:58 <sarang> sgp_ gave a great presentation recently about "real" privacy versus "potential" privacy
17:38:21 <fort3hlulz> Yeah have that saved for this Twitter campaign, gonna share it in a couple weeks probably just to resurface it since it's so recent
17:38:24 <fort3hlulz> Was SO GOOD
17:38:41 <fort3hlulz> Great laymans presentation on why Monero (and it's ethos/approach) is so important
17:39:10 <sgp_> Haha thanks :)
17:39:26 <sarang> It's always good to look at the difference between "a science project" and "something that's used in the real world"
17:39:35 <sarang> The goal is not be a good science project necessarily
17:39:44 <sarang> but to be broadly useful
17:39:55 <sarang> and to educate about edge cases where that doesn't work as expected
17:40:06 <sarang> IMO Breaking Monero is an attempt to tackle this
17:40:13 <sarang> perhaps non-optimally, but we try
17:40:47 <fort3hlulz> Yeah, Breaking Monero was a big step forward I think
17:41:21 <fort3hlulz> I would gladly fund more research/explanations like that, as not only does it help progress the project as a whole, it really helps inform those with larger/harder threat models they're facing
17:42:49 <sarang> Problem is that more complex analyses/heuristics won't be as easily accessible to the general public
17:42:59 <sarang> and at some point you probably hit diminishing returns
17:43:12 <sarang> (note that Breaking Monero was not funded separately)
17:43:28 <sarang> sgp_ and friends did that just for fun and community benefit
17:43:38 <fort3hlulz> Yeah which is crazy
17:43:42 <fort3hlulz> A lot of work had to go into that
17:43:48 <sarang> But research relating to protocol improvements is always ongoing
17:43:56 <sarang> it's just not always subject to big public fanfare
17:44:00 <sarang> it happens in the background
17:44:04 <sarang> the "plumbing of Monero"
17:44:21 <sarang> Well, I am already funded for research, and IMO that includes outreach
17:44:40 <sarang> so you might consider that Breaking Monero is funded through my CCS
17:44:55 <sarang> but sgp_ receives no community funding for this
17:45:02 <sarang> nor did Isthmus_
19:30:00 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> Sarang have you heard from anyone at Monero Outreach yet regarding our Triptych article? We’re going to need a technical review pass....
19:31:23 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> Also catching up on the earlier discussion.... is nano the same thing as what used to be called Raiblocks?
19:31:42 <sarang> xmrhaelan: I don't recall anything specific on Triptych recently
19:31:56 <sarang> Please let me know anything recent on this
19:32:06 <sarang> and I'll be happy to review for technical accuracy
19:32:29 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> Ok thanks Sarang. I will ask almutasim to reach out once we are feeling pretty good with it.
19:33:55 <sarang> please do
19:34:03 <sarang> Or reach out in advance of that
19:34:14 <sarang> I'm happy to provide input before it's in a "final state"
19:34:30 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> Ok great. What’s the best way to pm you?
19:34:36 <sarang> Can you PM on IRC?
19:34:40 <sarang> Otherwise I can provide a good email
19:34:52 <sarang> I'm also u/SarangNoether on reddit
19:34:54 <sarang> if that's easier
19:35:09 <sarang> For sensitive material you can find a GPG key on the repo
19:35:57 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> Thx
19:39:29 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> See Reddit
19:40:59 <sarang> received
20:05:10 <sarang> The C in CLSAG now stands for "concise"
20:05:25 <sarang> in response to reviewers who did not like the use of the term "compact"
20:05:29 <sarang> (I think the distinction is silly0
20:05:30 <sarang> )
20:06:38 <sarang> We've also moved from the term 'blackball' to 'spend outputs' to highlight that such outputs can be provably identified as spent using on- or off-chain analysis
20:06:42 <sarang> *spent outputs
20:07:33 <sarang> Why the use of the notation `P(n)`?
20:08:08 <sarang> Standard complexity notation uses `O(n)`, but this notation is likely not useful for non-technical readers
20:08:51 <sarang> Arthur Blue / RandomRun is a workgroup contributor; referring to them as an "outside partner" seems somewhat inaccurate
20:09:12 <sarang> also "glorious" Triptych seems... too much...
20:10:41 <sarang> The article seems to imply that Triptych handles amount commitments differently than MLSAG/CLSAG... it doesn't, really
20:11:26 <sarang> The underlying math is different, but MLSAG/CLSAG/Triptych can all be used in linkable ring signature constructions
20:12:05 <sarang> You cite verification times in the article, but these are not absolutes... they're based on particular test machines
20:12:07 <sarang> YMMV
20:12:51 <sarang> "Arcturus further shrinks transaction size by using a single cryptographic signature data bundle for the whole transaction instead of one each for the TXOs in the transaction (of which there are at least two)."
20:12:54 <sarang> ^ this is not correct
20:13:01 <sarang> Transactions can spend a single TXO
20:35:20 <ErCiccione[m]> fort3hlulz: Cool to see a #didyouknowmonero campaign kicking off. When i proposed it, it didn't have much success. I suggest to post little known facts like: "Did you know Monero privacy is optional and users can opt-out?" or "Did you know that Monero development is funded directly by the community?"
20:47:13 <rehrar> http://getmonono.org
20:56:22 <midipoet> #didyouknowmonero is a good hashtag
21:37:07 <sgp_> lol "MotorolaMotoe5Play"
21:41:01 <midipoet> the Did You Know Crypto is (I think) one of the best podcasts out there. Don't understand why it hasn't got more plaudits.
21:41:21 <midipoet> *best cryptocurrency podcasts
21:42:09 <sgp_> I don't think I've heard of it but I'm not super into podcasts
21:42:29 <kinghat[m]> miss bigredmachine
21:43:16 <sgp_> same