06:04:13 sgp_: that's a good idea, let me chat to the guys about it 06:21:11 sgp_: ok they're going to do a write-up 06:21:18 hopefully have something next week 06:29:02 Nice 12:37:16 Nice 12:44:39 fluffypony: nice! 15:10:38 We need to have a talk 15:11:32 Some people are going to think it's relatively political, but I think it's not at its core. And the Monero Community Workgroup is here to try and improve the Monero community however it can 15:12:19 as some of you know, the Monero Community Workgroup has a Code of Conduct. Those participating in our discussions must essentially respect others and stay cool. this makes our meetings and activities more productive and better for all 15:14:07 sadly, Monero is sometimes associated with people and used by people who make significant attempts to spread hate. White supremacist groups sadly started accepting Monero a few years ago along with Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies 15:15:31 These associations mean we sometimes need to take extra effort to explain why Monero is accepting. It's not necessarily good enough to stand by and say that "Monero is a neutral tool." The tool is neutral, but the community can still call people out, as we are quick to do with scammers and others 15:16:48 I bring this up because xmrhaelan recently posted a piece about black lives matter on the subreddit, which so far has only attracted downvotes and negative comments: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/h09vpc/black_lives_matter_and_the_monero_community/ 15:16:49 [REDDIT] Black Lives Matter and the Monero Community (self.Monero) | 0 points (32.0%) | 4 comments | Posted by xmrhaelan | Created at 2020-06-10 - 12:28:21 15:17:26 now, I think the wording and approach of this post is doomed to fail in this community sadly. it will only attract people who disagree, and they will be very vocal about it 15:17:58 however, that doesn't mean that these efforts are unnecessary in general, or that there isn't a more productive way to approach these 15:21:09 I think most people here think that the Monero community is accepting of them, but that's pretty irrelevant. We have a huge gender imbalance, worse than tech overall. I think it's likely we have a very small number of minorities, which tools like Monero are supposed to protect. Something should be improved 15:22:06 One has to ask though whether the reason of the imbalance is that Monero is unwelcoming to them or that they are simply not interested 15:22:07 It's not about filling quotas or whatever. It's about making sure the community is actually attractive to people different than us. It's about showing that we care. 15:22:10 And I am fairly certain it is the latter 15:22:25 well, WHY are they uninterested 15:22:40 we all think Monero is interesting obviously 15:23:06 how can the community and its messaging be more attractive to a more diverse audience? 15:26:14 be useful and ridiculously easy to use 15:27:02 I think there are two categories. 1) the wallets and use of the actual coin, and 2) the community and its workgroups 15:29:12 as long as it's not actually used for much of anything, and just potentially_useful_tech... you'll get a gang of nerds and speculators only 15:31:47 true, and I don't really see people actually using a volatile asset for purchases 15:33:16 back when i was interested in such things, lots of women used darknet markets as buyers and sellers. i dont think there's a tech/community barrier as such 15:35:05 sgp_: but... are you implying our community is currently not attractive to minorities? 15:36:16 What does that even mean? :P 15:37:41 And what would a solution be? 15:38:00 to some extent yes 15:40:10 if we have people on one extreme side posting racist content in r/MoneroMining and little else to balance it out, it's probably seen as unattractive 15:40:45 plus, it's not really up to us to decide whether the community we are in is attractive to outsiders or not. if they aren't joining, then it isn't 15:43:41 How can you tell they are not joining? Monero has a large subreddit, #moneor has 500 nicks (pretty high for freenode standards) - you don't know where those people are from, what age they are, etc 15:44:26 I don't really know very well, but based on the information I have (like YouTube views, Twitter account stats), it's not diverse 15:45:47 what are they going to do once in the community? 15:46:16 ideally enthusiastically join workgroups or start their own 15:46:44 ccs for demographics surveying 15:47:20 install trackers on the getmonero website that require DNA samples /s 15:47:37 as an aside, you can infer some demographics and interest from google trends 15:47:54 there are workgroups? 15:48:39 within the US it is certainly more googled in whiter states https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=monero&geo=US 15:49:07 but if you look worldwide venezuela is near top over the past year 15:49:46 in the past month jamaica and laos are in top 5 15:50:00 neat 15:50:10 GUI workgroup probably houses contributors from over 10 different countries 15:50:21 if not more ;) 15:50:35 such is often the case in open-source development 15:53:23 "I don't really see people actually using a volatile asset for purchases" 15:54:09 i hope thats not true, i see an opening for crypto here. the fees for doing business in dollars are often quite high 16:58:48 EVERYTHING is volatile these days. skeptics ask what value backs bitcoin. But these days, what value backs the S&P... 17:00:51 true but people don't transact in S&P either Inge- 17:05:28 didnt we already do the distance from moneromining thing already? 17:05:43 nah that never really happened 17:09:40 i guess i dont really know what was supposed to happen other than remove links? 17:09:49 were there even links? 17:10:12 wait, there was another sub started, correct? 17:10:13 the main mod is still there unfortunately and seems to use it occasionally for a pro-free-speech zone or whatever 17:10:22 nobody wanted to mod it? 17:10:59 https://www.reddit.com/r/MoneroMiner/ 17:11:17 there is some holdup on the transition I don't really understand 17:11:51 transition to r/MoneroMiner you mean? 17:12:28 yeah, since Reddit doesn't really allow for the removal of mods even for racist things 17:12:49 looks like needmoney and m5m are the mods of that atm 17:13:53 so the plan is to commandeer the old reddit or make our own? or both. is confused. 17:14:01 I reached out to my Reddit contact just now to see if there's another way, but it's not likely 17:15:10 Hmmm...so I'm going to give one reasoning as to why I think Monero isn't more palatable to minorities (particularly in race). Speaking as a minority. I also don't think it's something that can be changed on a Monero level. 17:15:48 Minorities are often else wealthy. Not all white people are wealthy but they are more likely to be so (speaking USA). Like it or not, Monero is a highly speculative asset. 17:16:17 When we do see minorities involved in Monero, they're usually of similar affluence to their white counterparts. I.e. more wealthy. 17:16:56 Monero, as it currently is existing as a highly speculative asset, is mostly a luxury for people. Luxury items are bought in larger quantities by those with disposabal income. 17:17:21 This can't be solved within Monero. We can't give them more disposable money. If it is to be solved, it must be solved via society. 17:18:00 We can make our wallets as easy as possible to use, and have the most welcoming community, but we are different than other FOSS projects, and just having a welcoming community won't bring people to us. We are different because we are money. 17:18:04 And money requires money. 17:19:25 The only exception is out of extreme need or desperation (like Venezuelans). This drives them to cryptocurrencies, but even this fits with my proposed model. In this case, cryptocurrencies are actually less speculative than their fiat. 17:23:44 re moneromining: part of the problem is that we didn't manage to seriously take distance form that subreddit. Removing it from getmonero has very limited effect if people from this community keep posting there. If you use it, you legitimate it and that's what's happening 17:24:08 i think there is just no interest in using a different subreddit.. and that's disappointing, but seems to be the case 17:27:29 rehrar: I agree on there being many factors that lead to it being adopted more by non-minorities 17:28:47 my overall point is that we often need to make concerted pushes to help get around those issues 17:29:16 and at the bare minimum acknowledge that those exist so that we can always be mindful of ways to improve 17:29:29 the ones that can be gotten around can be identified and worked on. One of my points is that there are some that we can't do anything about. That's not to say we do nothing on the ones we can, though. 17:29:36 I agree the community should take a bigger effort in being more welcoming and less neutral. I would like to be optimist, but i remember how people tried to delegitimate my point of keeping distance from moneromining after the racist phrase. The discussion was longer than it should have been 17:31:29 I disagree with rerhar's points. "We are different because we are money" it's not a point IMO. Because we are not, we are a community building money 17:31:30 When Monero was being adopted by criminals for mining, we put together mrw.getmonero.org 17:31:53 When a white supremacist starts accepting it, most of us just kinda hide 17:32:06 That's not good enough 17:32:36 That's why I think Monero's association with Bail Bloc is super cool 17:33:01 yeah, people in general (not only in monero) don't give a shit and that's where you have white supremacists, sexists and other scams coming 17:33:56 I would start with making clear that racists are not welcome in the monero community. If that's controversial for somebody, we have a problem 17:34:45 true, that's a basic CoC thing. Here are some examples of behavior that won't be tolerated here 17:34:51 I haven't had the time to read the post about bail bloc tho, i'll do it today after dinner 17:35:22 this cannot be implemented ecosystem-wide 17:35:29 it must be done per workgroup 17:35:38 they've been doing this for a while, and it's a small contribution overall 17:35:56 and if some workgroups want to disavow other workgroups for not adding a CoC they are free to do so 17:35:59 rehrar: sure, each platform needs to implement. but it's our job to be annoying and make sure it happens :P 17:36:29 it's not specifically about the CoC, but the general terms of common CoCs need to be enforced 17:36:34 there will be staunch opposition, especially by those pro-freedom 17:36:47 what will be your game plan against those? remove them all from the website? 17:36:49 they can make a group about pro-freedom somewhere else 17:37:14 what about the r/monero sub is pro-freedom first? 17:37:18 perhaps their group already exists. They don't need to make a new one. You're coming in to try to change their thing. 17:37:26 This is the current case with -pools for example 17:37:52 rehrar: Yes. if you don't take distance from racism with the excuse of "pro-freedom", you are just a disguised racist 17:37:54 pools is already covered by the Monero Core Team (by IRC registration). They're responsible for it imo 17:38:54 I think they technically have hidden super-admin or whatever over this channel too 17:39:03 As of yet, Core has not implemented a CoC type policy for things under their control. 17:39:13 That would be where to start if you wanted to see this change actually happen. 17:39:26 that's just one area. we also have Reddit and Telegram 17:39:47 and all the outreach potential, which I really want to help pursue with Bail Bloc 17:40:00 Sure. The point is convincing the leadership of the workgroups. 17:40:19 Why should that be a problem? 17:40:20 if you don't know much about the bail system here in the US, learn about it. It's a huge issue for lower-SES individuals 17:40:43 this is actually a huge opportunity to show how Monero is being used by disadvantaged groups 17:40:54 ErCiccione[m]: it has been shown to be a problem already (i.e. pools and moneromining). There will be some workgroup leaders that disagree. 17:42:22 If there is some "leader" disagree writing that they don't accept racists, i will have a big problem with them and i hope that people will just "fork away" from them 17:42:23 I am glad to see this discussion happening. It is important. 17:42:42 sorry about the grammar of that last message 17:42:45 xmrhaelan ugh 17:43:09 ? 17:44:10 I'll be blunt, and I know you two will disagree with me, but I don't think the Monero community is the battleground for this. As an actual minority, I don't care to see our already scant resources overly-focused on solving problems that are scarcely present. 17:44:57 I don't see it as using up resources we already have or whatever. It's about being mindful of doing things different ways 17:44:59 When a problem arises, we deal with it with sensible moderation. But going on preemptive witch hunts isn't the way forward imo. 17:45:19 +1 17:45:30 I don't see "don't post racist content" as a "preemptive witch hunt" 17:45:36 Who is going on witch hunts? 17:46:04 I do disagree šŸ™‚ It's not about being a battleground, the world is the battleground, you only have to choose a side and something as simple as taking a stand over racism makes the difference. If you don't you are making life easier for racists and other sum 17:46:04 *scum 17:46:27 which hunt? seriously? man that's disappointing 17:47:10 the point is to work with the mods of the channels first. we shouldn't show up with "gotcha." the point is to get ahead of issues before they happen though, since people often aren't thinking of broader potential issues that come from certain types of moderation 17:47:22 The conversation around racism in our society is not going to disappear over night. The Monero shouldnā€™t be on the wrong side of history just because their community leaders chose to ignore racism 17:47:37 What's happening here is people with fundamental worldview differences are talking to each other. Under your guys' worldview, the only reason somebody would ever defend this or that is if they were this or that. But they aren't operating on the same worldview as you. 17:48:03 rehrar: I don't see it that way at all, and it's hard for me to agree 17:48:13 Why is racism a political or worldview issue? 17:48:24 rehrar: Why are you making such assumptions? 17:48:45 * rehrar sigh 17:48:57 I get life is complicated. I'm gay and I've definitely done homophobic things before 17:49:14 xmrhaelan, 'wrong side of history' yeesh 17:49:18 ErCiccione: equating people to racists because they dont actively denounce racism is pretty terrible logic. and equally terrible for any cooperation from assumed racists. 17:49:44 I understand the idea that 'complacency is equal to status quo and status quo is racist so complacency is racist' 17:49:49 but I think things are more nuanced than that 17:50:14 kinghat: when did i say that? I'm saying that if you welcome racists to your channel, you are part of the problem. You are not racist maybe, but you are empowering racisms. I don't think that's better 17:50:15 and the issue comes when trying to view things with nuance gets denounced vehemently 17:50:16 rehrar: it is more nuanced than that, but it's expected that people do more than nothing if they can 17:51:02 basically it's all about actively looking for and mitigating cases where racism can occur, not in a rude way 17:52:03 In the field of anti-racist organizational change, one of the largest contributing factors to positive change is whether the organizationā€™s leadership is on board and serving as an example for that change. 17:52:11 this organization 17:52:13 has no 17:52:13 the problem isn't about trying to be nuanced 17:52:14 leadership 17:52:20 our core team is not our leaders 17:52:25 they manage the CCS and the general fund 17:52:29 and do merges on code 17:52:36 the problem is seeing obvious oppression or whatever and then trying to mitigate it with "nuance" 17:52:38 I work for the guys 17:52:42 and they barely even do THAT 17:53:12 You can create policies (CoC) all you want, but unless leaders within a group support them with their actions nothing will happen. 17:53:29 This is a decentralized community full of leaders. 17:53:49 Rehrar you are a leader whether or not you choose to admit it 17:53:58 xmrhaelan: to rehrar's point, I think some of the points you are making aren't considerate of the decentralized nature of the community. We are personalities that need to speak up, but the way you're talking about it is annoying rehrar 17:54:10 I'll be frank with you guys. What happened to George Floyd was so gut rending to me that I cut people out of my life because of their hideous comments about it. I not only support the protests, I support the rioting. I support the looting. 17:54:29 most of the people here are faceless and nameless. nobody is talking about race. 17:54:30 tear down the system, abolish the police, and all that. I'm all for it. 17:54:43 But Monero is trying to accomplish similar goals via a different means. 17:54:50 It's trying to give a system for opting out of the current system 17:54:58 not changing the current system, but opting out of it 17:55:29 you'll find many in Monero are meritocracy people. Yes there are flaws, but in short, we don't know color of skin or gender or sexual preference when code or work is submitted, and we don't care to know 17:55:30 Rehrar that was the exact sentiment of the article I wrote https://www.monerooutreach.org/stories/the-tool-for-renewal.html 17:56:00 xmrhaelan, of course I'm a leader. I'm not a leader of an organization though. 17:56:01 this discussion needs to be more practical. We all have different point of view, but i think (i HOPE) that nobody want to have racists around. LEt's just write that down somewhere, i think it's a good start, no? 17:56:06 rehrar: those principles are fine, I don't think anyone is arguing with them. but to get there, we need to make sure everyone *is* represented 17:56:18 ErCiccione yes 17:59:30 aight, well I'm just making my opinion known. You guys are free to institute whatever you want in the channels in which you control, and also free to try to convince others to do the same. 17:59:57 Monero the coin should be agnostic. Monero the community should stand against racism. Sure thatā€™s just an opinion, but why someone would argue that racism shouldnā€™t be called out is beyond me. A discussion is a start, and hopefully the discussion will lead to subtle changes in how forums are moderated. Hopefully those changes will make the community more diverse as time goes on. 17:59:58 Knowing people, you will meet resistance. Not necessarily because people are against saying 'no racism', but because people are against codification. 18:00:04 rehrar: would you be against publicly stating that we don't accept racists in the channels? 18:00:14 If you're angry about this, then so be it. 18:00:26 I am against racism in channels that I control. 18:00:44 good, let's write it down then 18:00:51 it already is here :) 18:00:53 'racism' not 'racists' 18:00:59 who are you to label someone? 18:01:05 and what have you done to not be given such a label 18:01:13 eeehm. what? 18:01:34 should we also list all of the other things we dont think monero represents? 18:01:36 let's just focus on "racist content" then 18:01:44 ok i rephrase. rehrar: are you ok with writing down that racists are not welcome? 18:02:12 sure, but this becomes unenforceable to me. 18:02:24 why? 18:02:32 as sgp_ said, he is gay, but sometimes does homophobic things out of habit of what we've been taught in our culture 18:02:48 I'm a PoC, according to current wokeness, it's nigh impossible for me to be racist cuz I don't have a position of power in our society 18:02:53 but I sometimes to racist things 18:02:53 point is to call out those things and to prevent them from happening when possible 18:02:55 *do 18:03:01 stopping words or action is possible 18:03:16 we can stop participation based on actions or words 18:03:27 and the answer should be to let them be? I don't care if you are black, white, green or blue. If you are racists, you are not welcome 18:03:33 but when we label someone 'racist' and say they can't join at all because 'that's who they are' then I have a problem 18:03:37 that's mostly what it's about, I think ErCiccione[m]'s point is that we need to understand too that actions by people in other channels may "spill over" a bit by association 18:03:50 I would posit to say that you are racist to some degree 18:03:51 as am I 18:03:54 as are all of us 18:03:57 we are humans 18:04:03 we are tribalistic by nature 18:04:12 and no matter how much we like to think so, we have not 'transcended our evolution' 18:04:17 so if we were to codify 'no racists' 18:04:21 then that means I could not participate 18:04:22 sure, but that's an identification that's not really actionable 18:04:28 come on man, that's just ridiculous 18:04:29 not because I'm actively racist against people 18:04:45 ErCiccione[m]: I mean this seriously, but no u 18:04:58 I think your position is ridiculous and unactionable 18:05:02 rehrar: focus on what's actionable please. everything taken to an extreme isn't very useful in practice 18:05:03 we are just playing on definitions and words here, it's super annoying 18:05:04 'no racist content' is actionable 18:05:22 if there is racist content, we delete it and warn, mute, or ban the person 18:05:27 'no racists' is not actionable 18:06:02 but also if someone is known to post racist/offensive content elsewhere, they may be banned here too if it creates an unsafe/unattractive environment 18:07:00 the last thing to discuss is by what metric we constitute 'racism' 18:07:06 not everyone subscribes to current woke definitions 18:07:11 I agree with ErCiccione[m] that we need to focus on the main goals rather than get caught up in definitions. We aren't robots 18:07:35 -pools, for example, didn't see what they were doing as racist, and many of us did. How do you bridge this gap? 18:07:48 there's no full definition of "racism" that's all-encompassing because people come up with new ways of being racist all the time 18:07:51 this discussion is sterile, i'm not going to playing with words and play around definitions 18:08:05 ErCiccione[m]: kthanksbai 18:08:18 assuming everyone has to be on your definitions is ludicrous 18:08:23 rehrar: you may disagree with ErCiccione[m], but I don't find your comments helpful or actionable either 18:08:44 that's the point of these discussions, isn't it sgp_? 18:08:52 not how you're doing it 18:09:09 if we're going to go down the route of enforcing 'no racism' then we need to define racism otherwise it becomes nebulous. 18:09:14 dont we already list how people should act in these areas that are moderated? 18:09:14 you're dismissing (perhaps unintentionally) an important conversation by making it all about a specific thing where you two probably agree anyways 18:09:37 some people will complain if something is enforced, and some people will complain if something isn't enforced. You need to point to a definitive definition of how enforcement is handled. 18:09:38 do you define every single thing you do? 18:09:48 do you adjust your understanding of what's offensive over time? 18:10:01 do you learn more perspectives and change your mind? 18:10:15 let's make an essay about what racism actually is from the dawn of time, that's the best way to create a welcoming policy 18:10:17 sgp_: it's actually hilarious how the white people in the room are talking over literally the only PoC in this conversation 18:10:43 šŸ˜‚ 18:12:52 you were also against a CoC here iirc 18:13:13 I was. Because I don't give words power. But I said that I'd support you if you did it, and you did, and I have. 18:13:21 Gone to bat multiple times for you in this regard from naysayers. 18:14:13 would you agree that it's helped the channel to remove bad actors more quickly? 18:14:22 and it's not just that 'sgp can do what he wants in his channels', it's that 'sgp is doing what he thinks is wise to make a welcoming community for everyone in a channel he controls. This is an admirable goal and I support it.' 18:15:02 sgp_: I think every action taken so far could have been done without a CoC (albeit there would probably be more aftermath complaining from free speech scrubs) 18:15:48 right, it's not about the CoC specifically. It's just a signal to show what types of content aren't tolerated. The CoC itself doesn't ban people 18:16:06 the CoC is implemented for justification purposes so you don't have to do ad nauseum explaining 18:16:21 but people whine and complain anyways, so you end up having to do some of it regardless :P 18:17:15 yes indeed 18:17:40 but the CoC doesn't define terms either 18:17:49 wait, so we already have a functioning CoC? 18:17:49 they're open for interpretation 18:18:02 kinghat[m]: for the #monero-community channel and workgroup, yes 18:18:04 https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/8x7eo9sV/CoC.docx 18:18:28 docx... oof :P 18:18:30 look, Justin, let me explain to you one of my big fears 18:18:34 is that coc posted somewhere? 18:18:51 I think on r/MoneroCommunity, but if not I'll post it 18:18:58 we can also add it to communityworkgroup.org 18:19:02 whats the problem then? its not working? 18:19:43 no, just that I'm always interested in trying to do more for the Monero community to make it approachable and fair 18:19:43 my big fear is that similar to -community wanting to distance itself from -pools, and then going a step further and saying the whole ecosystem should distance themselves from -pools, I'm afraid that if/when -community, spearheading this project of inclusiveness, meets the INEVITABLE resistance from other workgroups, especially those more freedom-oriented, that it will similarly denounce those groups and want 18:19:43 them taken off as well 18:19:47 yeah, should be somewhere. I ididn't even know existed 18:20:14 ErCiccione[m]: sure, let me add it to the website 18:20:19 the end result will be two factions of the Monero community. The 'Wokes' and the 'Frees'. 18:20:44 that's somewhat happened with r/bitcoin and r/btc, but that was for more than just racism 18:20:56 yep 18:21:01 and we will be the same thing 18:21:19 as far as I can tell, they didn't split because of censorship of hateful content though 18:21:48 if you guys really can't fathom the idea of working with anyone who has an inkling of racism in them, then I don't want to convince you to do so. But I, for one, can work with people that disagree with me. Even if they maliciously call me beaner, wetback, 'go back to Mexico' blah blah blah. I don't care. 18:21:49 FWIW I think since the last time we talked about -pools it has improved a lot. 18:22:28 The r/bitcoin and r/btc fraction has nothing to do with racism 18:22:36 lubs rehrar šŸ¤— 18:22:46 some people don't want to volunteer in an environment that has casual racism/sexistm/etc 18:22:59 some = many 18:23:11 r/btc was initially created as a place to discuss the block size issue without any censorship 18:23:29 whats casual racism? 18:23:37 It later kind of devolved into a sub for BCH 18:23:43 https://www.wired.com/2011/11/anonymous-101/ 18:23:44 read this 18:24:04 I will quote the article directly. 18:24:07 kinghat[m]: is that a serious question? 18:24:20 This deals with the pseudo org Anonymous, but much of -pools (and Monero at large) is birthed from this culture. 18:24:41 The context is speaking about the rough edges of /b/ from 4chan, the Anonymous birthplace 18:24:50 "In this, it has a kind of innocence and purity. Terms like 'nigger' and 'faggot' are common, but not there because of racism and bigotry - though racism and bigotry are easily found there. Their use is there to keep you out. These words are heads on pikes warning you that further in it gets much worse, and it does." 18:25:25 šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø i thought so. 18:25:56 Like it or not, much of cryptocurrency culture was, is, and will be steeped in this as well. It's one of the birthing places of cypherpunk ideals, and one of its chief flag carriers today. 18:26:40 This may be unacceptable to you. The fact that they use these words, in what they deem an unracist way, but you deem racist shows that there is a fundamental difference in worldview and what constitutes racism. 18:26:59 So yes, definitions are important. Because enforcement will be done from one point of view of racism. 18:27:34 Anyone upset about quibbles of definitions becomes dictatorial. "Shouldn't it be obvious? It's what me and my friends consider racism. If you disagree that that's what constitutes racism, then you're a terrible person and/or a racist." 18:27:34 isn't this all the more reason why we need to be aware that certain groups may be put off by or hesitant to participate? Why elect to adopt a financial system made by people with often hateful comments towards you? 18:28:07 The dollar is made by people hostile and hateful to me. 18:28:09 we shouldn't make the barrier to entry having tough skin 18:28:10 I use it because it's money. 18:28:23 I know Monero is different. We don't have mandatory adoption. 18:29:04 Whatever, I think I'm done with this discussion. As I said earlier, I'm just afraid this will fracture the community. 18:29:17 Some will say "Good. It's about time we called this stuff out, even if there are sacrifices in doing so." 18:29:26 If that's you, more power to you. You're doing what you think is right. 18:29:56 if we are talking about banning people for shit they do you have to be specific. you cant just vaguely ban people because the banhammer woke up on the wrong side of the bed that day. 18:29:59 I only ask that you accept some ambiguity in adopting some of these policies, that not literally everything needs to be defined in advance 18:30:03 But I am also doing what I think is right by voicing my concerns and objections. And if doing so makes me a 'bad person' in your eyes, so be it. Your moral high ground is not automatically higher than mine just because you think it is. ;) 18:30:29 sgp_: I'm not talking so much about you, man. 18:30:43 I disagree with you somewhat often, but I support what you do and the reasons for which you do it. 18:31:12 And I truly hope that me voicing my concerns just makes you think of another side that isn't evil, but also isn't approving of some steps you might take. I'm just making you aware of these viewpoints. 18:31:44 have you been a part of a community that fractured like this? 18:31:53 im around here a lot and i dont really see anything of the sort happening in the areas where the current CoC is applied. 18:31:59 over some people trying to remove racism of whatever 18:32:02 *or 18:32:16 sgp_: the sad thing is I'm going through it right now 18:32:26 I have seen a lot of open source projects split because of this CoC discussion. 18:32:58 as I alluded to earlier in this conversation, the George Floyd protests really made me cut off a lot of people from my life. Their comments in support of what happened or the police was to disgusting, and I cut off many old friends. 18:33:12 There is a small amount of mourning, but I have my own life these days. :) So I'm fine. 18:33:25 *too disgusting 18:33:56 Those that were willing to at least talk or reason with me, I was willing to engage and not cut from my life. 18:34:10 I don't care about anybody's opinions on my personal decisions btw :D 18:34:34 but I was willing to let my irl community fracture, because I have the irl resources to manage it 18:34:39 Monero does not have these resources 18:34:47 a fracture would greatly hamper movement 18:35:16 I see it more as calling out some personalities that should have been called out earlier, and they are now gone from the Monero community. We've moved on 18:35:18 I donā€™t think CoCs need to be changed and I donā€™t think mods need to pull out hammers. I think people who are active in forums should just police their own and not remain silent when they see comments that are hateful or inappropriate 18:35:33 and in such a time when so many exiciting things are on the horizon (like Arcturus), I think it's silly that we're taking this conversation to the extent that we are when we haven't even dealt with this very much at all 18:36:00 At the very least, a conversation is happening and if it ends here, Iā€™m fine with that. 18:36:14 xmrhaelan, once again, people operate under differing definitions of hateful or inappropriate. If we're going to optimize for the weakest skin people, then that needs to be made clear. 18:36:50 If someone called me a wetback, and someone else jumped in saying not to do that, I wouldn't be grateful. I'm a grown man. I don't give a shit what this guy says or what he thinks. 18:37:00 I could appreciate the sentiment, but I'm not a child. 18:37:38 "but what about the other Mexicans in the room that aren't as strong as you?" 18:37:39 however if someone posted homophobic content and it was upvoted, and those calling it out were downvoted, I would be very disappointed in the community personally. maybe this means I have "weaker skin" 18:38:20 such is life. people are different. 18:38:29 none of this is even happening.. 18:38:37 If we want to be completely inclusive, we need to optimize for the most theoretical weakest skin there is 18:38:37 I agree with Rehrar this shouldnā€™t distract from big Monero developments. I also donā€™t think it has and I donā€™t think it will: 18:38:45 +1 to pretty much everything rehrar has taken the time to explain above 18:39:04 kinghat[m]: that's the clincher isn't it? 18:39:07 One Reddit post with zero upvotes and a handful of people discussing on IRC is hardly a distraction... 18:39:29 we can make a million hypotheticals: "What if someone comes in here and insults gays, blacks, and says they're going to dox us all and kill us because of our differences????" 18:39:45 xmrhaelan, certainly taking my time 18:40:08 several people message me saying they'd rather not get involved, but disagree. They won't get involved cuz they'll get angry or distracted. 18:40:29 If only the 'wokes' speak, then only their voices are heard. So I speak on behalf of those that aren't (and myself). 18:40:41 And no, I'm not afraid of being 'cancelled' for it. :) 18:41:07 "If we want to be completely inclusive, we need to optimize for the most theoretical weakest skin there is" this is important, but I don't think it's as crazy as you think. It's about calling out behaviors as they happen, not literally stopping all discussion. In practice people don't actually get insulted by everything 18:41:09 Well I suspect this conversation will fade within 24-48 hours. I am glad it happened. 18:41:23 I see that as a sort of slippery slope fallacy 18:41:51 https://politics.theonion.com/trump-warns-removing-confederate-statues-could-be-slipp-1819592904 18:42:07 If the leaders in here just made an informal agreement that racism is bad and if we see it we should speak up, thatā€™s a win in my book 18:42:22 xmrhaelan under your definition of racism? 18:42:29 you keep dodging that point 18:42:35 as if we all agreed as to what it means 18:42:48 and it being unthinkable that someone else has a different viewpoint or definition 18:43:08 rehrar: I don't understand what types of comments you are looking for. Surely you don't have a magical understanding of every possible scope of racist comment 18:43:23 no, I don't and that's the point. None of us do. 18:43:37 From the dictionary: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others. 18:43:46 I hang out in pools and it sometimes does become an echo chamber so I will make a comment not so much at a person but instead stating a view in a way to illuminate things. Undoing one's own incorrect worldview is not a simple process. 18:44:42 Anti-racist practitioners take the definition a step further and say that racism = prejudice + power. So, we can just agree to shun all prejudice when we see it, or go with the dictionary definition. 18:44:56 in practice mods will use judgement to enforce, and if you disagree, then talk about it 18:45:01 ^ 18:45:04 this simple 18:45:14 this happens without a CoC also btw 18:45:26 Dictionary definition of prejudice: unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding an ethnic, racial, social, or religious group. 18:45:28 right, which is why I don't understand the importance of these definitions lol 18:46:00 Niocbrrrrrr good strategy 18:46:08 the word 'unreasonable' doing a lot of heavy lifting there 18:46:26 Sure is 18:46:52 our understanding shifts all the time 18:47:12 My opinion is small here, but Iā€™ll just leave it with saying I donā€™t think CoC changes or enforcement are necessary. I think we just need to be awesome to each other and call out assholes who arenā€™t. 18:47:54 it's about making sure the Monero community fits/exceeds a changing reasonable definition. "reasonable" is an undefined word, but it's the best we got, and it's used in legal agreements all the time 18:49:03 has anything changed, though? is something not working with the current setup? i dont get it šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø 18:49:22 well, do as you do. I will continue supporting your leadership of the Community workgroup and the code of conduct you've implemented for it 18:49:38 are you saying we need to make a post for everyone to come check out are CoC? 18:49:55 it's a good experiment for all of the other workgroups that don't have one, and I think the experiment has shown that it's no the end of the world, mostly by way of it doesn't matter too much 18:50:03 I appreciate the work you do in wanting everyone to feel welcome here, Justin. 18:50:08 * are you saying we need to make a post for everyone to come check out our CoC? 18:50:12 There is no need to ask each other "what racism actually is?" the same way we don't do it for all the other bannable offences. That's up to the mod, i don't understand why this discussion is happening for this specific case. Just say we don't want racist comment as we don't want insults. That's it. I think nobody would say "yes, but what insult actually means?". same thing. 18:50:13 I see your heart in this. What you're really trying to accomplish. And I commend your work. 18:50:52 I appreciate all of you. 18:55:45 i dont do anything here other than offer push back where i see its needed and bitch from time to time so i guess my job is done. time for a workout. āœŒļøŽ all! 18:58:08 https://www.communityworkgroup.org/monero-community-workgroup-code-of-conduct 19:09:20 interesting discussion 19:09:43 for the record, I thought the outreach document was in bad taste 19:11:06 not because the issue isn't important (it is), but because the issue was being used as a platform for communicating some overt message regarding what Monero is/does/could be. 19:12:49 I stressed that on Reddit as it was posted too. It's a difficult line to walk, and I don't claim to have the answers 19:17:18 it's not really that difficult. Monero keeps doing what it does, while the community try and ensure we remain welcoming and receptive to all (which i think we do anyway). There is no marketing message needed. If we want to make overt efforts to make the community more "representative", we should do that at a local level, rather than through some defined "minority" protocol or "marketing message". I do wonder 19:17:18 sometimes why there are very few women in the community, for example. There was that issue with the article I remember, making a big deal out of a woman working with/on Monero 19:27:46 Midipoet that article was written by a woman, about a woman. We were just a platform to share it because they were both interested in Monero. 19:28:58 Part of outreach involves responding to social and cultural cues outside of our niche group. You guys donā€™t have to agree with all of our methods but I hope you can appreciate the hard work we do for Monero 19:33:05 I won't go so far to say additional media is REQUIRED, but it is appreciated and should be sought out whenever possible imo 19:38:31 of course I respect the work put in, that isn't what this is about. It's about what sort of "marketing" the community wants. outbound comms is something I think should be very light touch, mainly due to the decentralisation we talk of. Having a "Monero voice" seems antithetical to what Monero is actually about. That's my own personal view, however. Having said that, the race issue is extremely complex and 19:38:32 nuanced, and I didn't think was the place to discuss the merits of Monero over Bitcoin, or about what Chainanalysis said, or even about what Satoshi said. If someone wanted to write about racism and societal issues, then just write about those issues. Using the issue as a platform for a "Monero message" just looked like opportunism to me. For example, insert ZCash instead of Monero into that article, what 19:38:32 would "we" have thought then? 19:39:36 it's bigger than just what "Monero" wants. Monero Talk, the Monero Coffee Chats, etc. are important outward-facing tools, even if it's not their only purpose 20:10:20 sure. but if I saw a Monero Talk episode that discussed how Monero could help those suffering from racism and structural bias, I would also think it was a bit off the mark. 21:26:17 https://brow.sh 21:26:34 https://www.brow.sh * 21:50:21 thats something 21:50:37 ikr 21:52:26 this is how you view the www? 21:52:39 yeah gonna try it out for a while 21:53:56 i wish you luck 21:54:41 thank you!