10:00:21 -xmr-pr- [css-proposals] Moeen opened pull request #132: Persian-translation
10:00:21 -xmr-pr- > https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/132
15:18:11 <sarang> .time
15:18:11 <monerobux> 2020-03-14 - 15:18:11
15:49:28 <rehrar> Meeting in an hour.
15:49:41 <sarang> Hooray!
15:50:00 * sarang will be there
16:40:53 <needmonero90> Meetings are a scam
16:41:21 <rottensox> you are a scam.
17:00:10 <rehrar> hello
17:00:13 <rehrar> hello hellooooooo
17:00:19 <sarang> hi
17:00:26 <rehrar> it's now time for a meeting down on Monero Lane
17:00:44 <rehrar> won't you mosey on over? Take a seat by the fire. Kick your boots off. I think someone brought a banjo.
17:00:59 <rehrar> How many of you cowboys are here today?
17:01:19 <rehrar> sarang is here making s'mores already. I'm here taking out my harmonicas. Anyone else?
17:01:30 <ErCiccione> Hi
17:03:03 <rehrar> just us three then
17:03:17 <rehrar> 2. Community Highlights
17:03:27 <rehrar> I would say read the Revuo, but I didn't put it out yesterday. It'll come out today.
17:03:32 <rehrar> New puppy. He's exhausting. :P
17:03:54 <rehrar> So look forward to the Revuo today. Toss some money in the general fund if you like it.
17:04:06 <rehrar> 3. CCS Updates
17:04:33 <rehrar> Let's discuss sarang's thing.
17:04:38 <rehrar> Should we move it ErCiccione?
17:04:48 <sarang> Hi there
17:04:54 <ErCiccione> Absolutely not
17:04:57 <sarang> The proposal is here, recently updated: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/131
17:05:00 <rehrar> sarang, what say you in your defense?
17:05:13 <selsta> hi
17:05:16 <sarang> Well, I'm ready to go for another quarter of research
17:05:23 <sarang> Lots done, lots to do, as usual!
17:05:32 <rehrar> Oof. 700ish XMR.
17:05:33 <ErCiccione> joking of course. btw sarang, did you update your rate? Market dropped quite a lot
17:05:39 <rehrar> Not your fault, of course.
17:05:45 <sarang> Yes, I recently updated due to high volatility
17:05:53 <ErCiccione> Good
17:05:59 <rehrar> just update the price there every hour
17:06:11 <sarang> Certainly happy to answer questions or take comments during this meeting, or on the GitLab page
17:06:23 <rehrar> I think this is more of a tribunal than a meeting.
17:06:40 <sarang> One exciting thing not listed there is that the new Triptych-2 preprint is in the queue for posting to the IACR archive :)
17:06:49 <rehrar> but if erciccione says move, then that's good enough for me.
17:06:51 <rehrar> woohoo!
17:06:56 <sarang> It might take a few days for the editors to post it
17:07:00 <ErCiccione> That's cool
17:07:13 <ErCiccione> please remember to add it to getmonero
17:07:16 <sarang> Once a preprint is posted, any revisions can be done automagically
17:07:20 <sarang> Yup, I have a local branch
17:07:27 <ErCiccione> Nice
17:07:33 <sarang> but I need the IACR ID for the URL
17:07:34 <rehrar> we also have a persian translation proposal opened
17:07:39 <sarang> and that isn't known until the editors approve it
17:07:48 <ErCiccione> sarang: only in english, no need to do it for the other languages anymore
17:07:51 <sarang> There won't be a problem with approval, just waiting for their queue
17:08:04 <sarang> ErCiccione: so don't even add the English string or tag to the other language files?
17:08:12 <sarang> Edit _only_ the *.en file?
17:08:16 <sarang> or whatever the file name is!
17:08:30 <ErCiccione> Yep. No need to do it for all languages as before (thanks weblate)
17:08:48 <rehrar> thx bb
17:08:49 <sarang> Nice! I'll message you when I finish, to check that I did the new process correctly
17:08:57 <sarang> Sorry to derail the meeting rehrar!
17:09:00 <ErCiccione> Sure
17:09:41 <rehrar> Persian proposal
17:09:51 <rehrar> as predicted, pay one person for translation, start paying them all
17:10:13 <ErCiccione> I gave it only a quick look i only saw they are proposing to translate a lot of stuff
17:10:25 <sarang> rehrar: are you opposed to CCS for translations as a general rule?
17:10:31 <ErCiccione> I'll be happy to have a lot of translations in persian tbh, it's a major language
17:11:14 <rehrar> sarang: not necessarily. It was just predicted by many that up until a few months ago most translations were voluntary.
17:11:32 <rehrar> When we approve a few people for translations on the CCS, it sets a precedent, and suddenly everyone wants money for it.
17:11:33 <ErCiccione> most of the translations are still voluntary
17:11:50 <rehrar> But it could also be that harder to get languages might need incentivization.
17:12:08 <rehrar> I say this as not a good or bad thing. Neutral. It is what it is. A fact. A truth. Reality.
17:12:27 <rehrar> plz leave a comment on the proposal ErCiccione
17:12:31 <rehrar> you are elected for this purpose
17:12:36 <ErCiccione> I'm ok with having paid translators, especially for the website, which is a lot of stuff
17:12:46 * needmonero90 shambles in
17:12:46 <ErCiccione> am i the chosen one?
17:12:48 <xmrscott[m]> It could encourage more people to be paid for work they already have, but I think the cat is already out of this bag at this point
17:12:49 <rehrar> Any further thoughts on the Whonix Debian packages proposal?
17:12:55 <ErCiccione> btw i will as soon as i give it a deeper look
17:12:59 <sarang> How do most translations work when things are added ErCiccione?
17:13:00 <xmrscott[m]> People who translate freely because of philosophy or whatever will continue to do so
17:13:20 <sarang> things = new strings, not new languages
17:13:34 <needmonero90> Rehrar: I still stand by only paying coordinators
17:13:47 <needmonero90> People with time commitment to coordinate the donated work
17:13:54 <ErCiccione> sarang: for GUI, CLI and the core part of getmonero changes are catched automatically. Soon will be the case for the roadmap as well
17:14:03 <dEBRUYNE> <rehrar> as predicted, pay one person for translation, start paying them all <= I kind of warned for this too
17:14:13 <sarang> Right, but do the previous translators typically return to make the updates?
17:14:16 <needmonero90> Paying individual translators prevents people who would eventually be willing to do it for free from even having the opportunity
17:14:17 <dEBRUYNE> It removes the altruistic nature of the translations and at some point you will end up with people only willing to translate in case they get paid
17:14:17 <sarang> Or how does it happen in practice?
17:14:33 <ErCiccione> that's not really the case
17:14:50 <ErCiccione> translators are for the vast majority still made by volunteers, as i said earlier
17:14:58 <sarang> Got it, thanks
17:15:00 <sarang> just curious
17:15:09 <ErCiccione> and i welcome people willing to work on the harder stuff (which volunteers avoid) and getting paied for it
17:15:47 <ErCiccione> the point is that volunteers tend to work on the "easy" stuff, leaving behind harder parts
17:16:09 <ErCiccione> like user guides and moneropedia for getmonero
17:16:21 <dEBRUYNE> ErCiccione: Hence, at some point
17:16:27 <dEBRUYNE> If the trend continues like this I expect for it to happen
17:16:29 <ErCiccione> the GUI is still vastly translated by volunteers, and i haven't noticed any change of trend
17:16:46 <dEBRUYNE> Anyway, perhaps my statement is a bit too drastic, but still
17:17:30 <ErCiccione> dEBRUYNE: i disagree, we didn't get a crazy amount of CCS for paied translations
17:17:37 <rehrar> I think if there is a drastic drop off of volunteers and uptick in people asking for money for translations we can revisit the conversation?
17:17:41 <rehrar> until then we can monitor
17:18:03 <ErCiccione> the problem is that the drop of volunteers is a problem, without the CCS
17:18:11 <rehrar> add some tracking, javascript, and user surveys to see what people are thinking and understand general sentiment
17:18:18 <ErCiccione> that's why i'm happy that people open proposals, because otherwise we won't have stuff translated
17:18:22 <rehrar> I jest obviously
17:19:01 <ErCiccione> so, i personally don't see the problem with CCS translators and as i said, i welcome them,
17:19:13 <rehrar> ok, any further thoughts on this or the Debian one?
17:19:36 <ErCiccione> but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't monitor the situation
17:19:44 <rehrar> Shall we close the Telegram bot one? Opened July 2019. Probably past expiry.
17:20:32 <rehrar> sarang can you shed some light on this Atoc guy?
17:20:35 <rehrar> he still around or what?
17:20:42 <rehrar> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/120
17:21:11 <sarang> I haven't heard from them in a while
17:21:27 <sarang> They showed research interest, and did talk to suraeNoether in the research channel
17:21:44 <sarang> However, suraeNoether had earlier made it clear that he hadn't endorsed that proposal or anything
17:22:20 <selsta> didn’t we have a rule that CCS should only get opened by community members that contributed in the past?
17:22:33 <rehrar> selsta: was never a codified rule
17:22:57 <rehrar> Ok. I'll have luigi leave a comment in the proposal asking for him to update.
17:23:05 <rehrar> selsta: but I prefer it that way, yes.
17:23:12 <rehrar> but I'm just a nobody.
17:24:02 <rehrar> Meh. Let's move on.
17:24:05 <rehrar> Workgroup reports
17:24:13 <rehrar> Any workgroup have something to say?
17:24:28 <rehrar> sarang: MRL selsta GUI ErCiccione website
17:24:32 <sarang> I have been working quite a bit on transaction protocols: CLSAG, Triptych, Triptych-2
17:24:33 <selsta> CLI GUI released v0.15.0.5 but we still have to wait for GUI binaries
17:24:42 <rehrar> xmrscott[m]: changing the world
17:24:51 <sarang> FWIW suraeNoether indicated he would have reduced availability for the next few weeks, but I don't want to speak for him
17:25:12 <sarang> However, I am still waiting on some input from him on CLSAG
17:25:31 <rehrar> selsta: does the devs have any idea what sufficient review on D++ looks like in practice before being released?
17:25:50 <selsta> I don’t decide that
17:25:58 <rehrar> ye, but just general sentiment?
17:26:12 <selsta> I guess if mooo and vtnerd are happy with it
17:26:25 <rehrar> sarang: will MRL one day decide on something or will we keep refining until we get to Triptych-38? :D
17:26:33 <sarang> lol
17:27:00 <sarang> My next step is C++ code, and I'd like some input from folks who do embedded hardware stuff
17:27:13 <sarang> because of things like multisig that require some extra math
17:27:24 <rehrar> oof. SOME math is bad enough.
17:27:28 <rehrar> EXTRA math is too much for me.
17:27:39 <sarang> What I don't want is for a full implementation to be completed, and then all of a sudden hear "oh, these devices can't do that"
17:28:05 <rehrar> makes sense. Maybe we can talk to michael or i_a
17:28:12 <sarang> This is why I want CLSAG to happen
17:28:25 <rehrar> Ok, any other updates from a workgroup?
17:28:25 <sarang> it's a very good intermediate step that works nicely with existing systems
17:28:55 <ErCiccione> About localizations and website: translators are active lately, which is good. About website. I'm heavily changing the structure of the roadmap, so we can add it to Weblate. I'm also changing the structure a bit (emojis instead of CSS geometric shapes)
17:29:30 <ErCiccione> after that i will try to put the user guides on weblate as well. And i already have nightmares about it
17:29:38 <rehrar> And after that can we get rid of the merchants page?
17:29:56 <ErCiccione> the merchants page is super ugly. Suggestions to improve it are welcome
17:30:02 <rehrar> deleting is an improvement
17:30:24 <rehrar> I use the Monero site on my portfolio, and I'm scared they'll find that page
17:30:43 <ErCiccione> I think it's cool to have a list of merchants, even if it's annoying to maintain. But yeah, it's bery ugly
17:30:46 <ErCiccione> *very
17:30:56 <ErCiccione> lol
17:30:57 <rehrar> ErCiccione: something a third party site would be better handling imo
17:31:08 <rehrar> either way
17:31:11 <rehrar> moving on
17:31:16 <rehrar> VR meeting tomorrow. 17 UTC.
17:31:25 <rehrar> https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/447
17:31:38 <rehrar> there will be an agenda. Probably thrown together at the last second. Just come hang out. Eat virtual chips.
17:32:31 <rehrar> Moneroversary is April 18. Any thoughts on what to do for that?
17:33:12 <rehrar> No? Any other ideas, comments, or criticisms?
17:33:20 <rehrar> going ooooonce
17:33:27 <rehrar> going twiiiiice
17:33:41 <rehrar> okmeetingoverkthanksbai
17:33:52 <rehrar> sarang: what does cryptography say about when corona virus will be over?
17:33:57 <rehrar> can we encrypt it out of existence?
17:34:02 <sarang> o_0
17:34:06 <rehrar> throw away the private key
17:34:10 <rehrar> inaccessible to everyone
17:34:15 <rehrar> unless quantum computing unlocks it again
17:36:59 <needmonero90> For the versary let's have a meetup in virtual space
17:37:31 <xmrscott[m]> So long as tomorrow goes over half decently, sure
17:38:14 <sarang> rehrar ErCiccione etc.: any recommended changes for my proposal?
17:38:51 <rehrar> xmrscott[m]: can you fork hubs and make it better plz? thanks.
17:39:03 <rehrar> sarang: dude you're a pro at this by now
17:39:15 <rehrar> just tell people you'll work sometimes for some Monero and they'll give it to you.
17:39:22 <ErCiccione> Nope. Looks fine to me
17:40:13 <xmrscott[m]> rehrar: Do we have anyone in the community that has some experience designing VR rooms and the like? May be best asking around on reddit or something now if VR is what is of interest to give enough time to create whatever in advance
17:40:21 <sarang> OK thanks rehrar, just wanted to make sure
17:40:21 <ErCiccione> sarang one thing about CLSAG. Should we look for auditors?
17:40:36 <ErCiccione> (unrelated to your proposal)
17:40:47 <rehrar> xmrscott[m]: let's talk about this
17:40:55 <sarang> My current plan is to wait until I get suraeNoether's final approval on the paper updates, and then confirm Teserakt's schedule
17:40:58 <rehrar> I am willing to do some searching, for sure. But I'm pretty swamped.
17:41:03 <sarang> I can get that information to the audit workgroup
17:41:11 <rehrar> Maybe we can find a volunteer who, if he can't do the VR stuff himself, can find someone who can.
17:41:31 <sarang> I'm hesitant to do auditor contacting again without a final paper
17:41:34 <sarang> (this happened earlier)
17:41:35 <ErCiccione> sarang: Alright got it. So only 1 audit needed? I recall somebody saying one should be enough
17:41:56 <sarang> This seems to be the general consensus, and I personally agree as well
17:42:00 <ErCiccione> makes sense
17:42:19 <sarang> Internal review is still important, of course, for code
17:42:33 <sarang> I would not rely on the paper being reviewed just because it's on IACR
17:43:46 <ErCiccione> Should we pole people to take a look at it? Even if i don't know how many in the community would be able to review it
17:43:53 <sarang> Paper or code?
17:44:06 <ErCiccione> i was thinking about paper
17:44:17 <ErCiccione> code i think we have people
17:44:50 <sarang> It's tough to find people with the right experience to review, outside of a formal review process for conferences etc.
17:46:29 <ErCiccione> i guess we have more chances for the review of the code
17:46:35 <sarang> I'd expect so
17:54:53 <ErCiccione> sooo meeting over?
17:55:04 <ErCiccione> rehrar?
17:55:15 <rehrar> ye I said above
17:55:22 <xmrscott[m]> Meeting was over at 10:33 me thinks
17:55:54 <xmrscott[m]> Is the beer crawl happening today, or was that another today?
17:56:06 <xmrscott[m]> s/another today/another day
17:56:06 <monerobux> xmrscott[m] meant to say: Is the beer crawl happening today, or was that another day?
17:56:14 <ErCiccione> ah ok. I missed that :P
17:59:07 <sarang> ErCiccione: once moneromooo decides whether to integrate my latest CLSAG PR into their branch, the code should be ready for review AFAIK
17:59:20 <sarang> It works now, but I had some additional optimizations to include
17:59:50 <ErCiccione> Cool. Almost there then :)
18:00:44 <sarang> Yep! And for the paper, I've left comments for suraeNoether
18:01:18 <sarang> and then the paper can be updated on IACR (which can happen right away without the editors' queue)
19:17:46 <sarang> rehrar: whom should I contact if/when it's time to move the proposal to FR?
19:22:29 <rehrar> Me or Luigi. If you tell me I'll tell Luigi.
19:27:18 * sarang tells rehrar
19:28:05 <sarang> =p
19:29:53 * rehrar tells luigi1111w 
19:31:00 <sarang> coolio
19:31:18 <sarang> I'd like to maximize the time it's open before the end of the month, if it's otherwise agreed that it's time to open it