00:45:10 https://github.com/allthemusicllc/atm-cli 00:45:28 thats kewl # kinghat 00:46:43 https://yro.slashdot.org/story/20/02/26/1610248/jury-convicts-ex-microsoft-worker-in-digital-currency-scheme 00:52:03 digital currency = gift cards 00:52:05 hmmm 01:17:19 nioc, bitcoin is gift cards 07:17:24 REGISTER superSSHM9394 supersshm⊙ln 07:51:27 rip 08:09:31 .time 17:00:33 Monero doesn't really have a Discord community. That's fine, but many people use Discord. Should we create a Discord (or use an existing server) and have relays to Telegram at least? 17:05:16 alot of people use Discord and Telegram... 17:05:22 we need an oficial channel 17:06:39 I'd be surprised if there wasn't already an unofficial Monero discord 17:11:21 there are some non-official efforts 17:11:33 There is a discord channel. 17:11:33 but they haven't gotten much love recently 17:11:46 But no love, it's true. 17:19:13 hi all. My name is Monis and we are looking to do an event in Greece with Monero. I am reaching out on behalf of the Greek Cryptocurrency community. We have bi monthly meetups which we record on zoom and upload on Youtube . 17:20:00 We have all the proof of work from our previous meetups on youtube. What is the right way to go here ? to raise a CCS proposal ? 17:24:12 What kind of event is this? Just a normal meetup? 17:24:30 Monisgr: hello 17:24:44 needmonero90: there's some additional context in #monero-konferenco if you're there 17:25:10 hi there. It is a meet up where we live stream from 2 locations.. Athens and Thessaloniki.. and our speakers (people from your community) join us through zoom 17:25:32 we build an agenda of educational talks.... design the banners.. set up the meetup.com links 17:25:48 on the meet up day.. we record the talks .. and upload it on youtube 17:26:11 the video stays there forever and it becomes both Monero's and the Greek community's legacy 17:26:43 We have done similar stuff with Zcash, Komodo, Cardano etc... ( I can share the videos from youtube) its time for a Monero meetup 17:27:13 Actually... it was always time for a monero meet up.. but... we had no idea where to look. We tried Telegram.. discord... we did not know about the IRC room here 17:27:18 Monisgr: can you link the other videos please? 17:27:38 Sure. Do you want me to post those in here ? or PM ? 17:27:56 Here. 17:28:10 ok cool. Our Zcash meet up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9AHWEA1a7Y&t=180s 17:28:11 [ Greek Cryptocurrency Community meetup 18/05/2019 with The Electric Coin Co. (ex Zcash) - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com 17:28:14 There aren't many closed doors in this ecosystem lol 17:28:39 our Komodo meet up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpll2XZt4o8&t=5041s 17:28:40 [ Greek Cryptocurrency Community meetup 16/02/2019 with Komodo - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com 17:29:03 our Cardano meet up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP0vq6b6kec&t=1061s 17:29:04 [ Greek Cryptocurrency Community meetup 23/11/2019 with Cardano - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com 17:29:25 our Syscoin meet up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5_CHc0jJCs&t=4412s 17:29:25 [ Greek Cryptocurrency Community meetup 21/09/2019 with Syscoin Platform - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com 17:30:11 our meet up page https://www.meetup.com/Greek-Cryptocurrency-community/events/268860337/ 17:30:52 ignore previous link. thats the right one https://www.meetup.com/Greek-Cryptocurrency-community/events/past/ 17:33:10 All of the CCS proposals in Funding Required appear to be fully funded and there are quite a few floating around in Ideas 17:33:24 So , what we require is cover some small expenses for our meetup (close to 300 EUR) that will cover renting space in Athens, zoom subscription, banner designer fee , equipment like Microphones and Tv screens etc AND we want you to present Monero to the Greek community. We would like someone to join us and present Monero to us 17:33:28 thanks Monisgr 17:33:34 My pleasure guys. 17:33:56 So.. is the CCS proposal the way to go ? 17:34:05 Will it look off topic if we raise a CCS ? 17:34:58 CCS is one possibility, you could also seek a corporate sponsor at that funding level. 17:35:12 We would prefer a community sponsor 17:35:16 There are a few Monero companies who would probably be interested in covering costs for a plug 17:35:21 we dont want to advertise anything else but Monero 17:35:30 Hm 17:35:53 it needs to be a Monero meet up and nothing else 17:36:08 and we are not making a cent out of this 17:36:15 everything will go to the expenses of the meet up 17:36:22 There are a few highly respected monero companies though as needmoney said 17:36:43 Might be worth hitting them up before writing up a ccs 17:37:21 hmmm we dont want to be funded by companies :( 17:37:32 we were always funded by communities 17:37:39 Monisgr: one of your past events was sponsored by the Electric Coin Company :p 17:37:41 we want to keep it as less commercial as possible 17:37:52 I get what you mean though 17:37:58 It was... but.. El Coin Company = zcash :) 17:38:14 we wanted a zcash meet up.. they said... this is the brand.. we said fine 17:38:27 but the Zcash foundation sponsored it 17:38:43 lol weird 17:39:01 oh well.. :) 17:39:12 so.... do you think we have chances if we fire up a CCS ? 17:39:13 I think you should have trouble getting speakers. Looks like you have a decent-sized following 17:39:45 what about funding ? 17:39:57 we are after 4 XMR. 17:40:17 Go for it. Much less worthy ideas get proposed all the time. 17:40:41 Thanks man 17:41:29 I think the cost is certainly reasonable, but I also recommend following needmoney90's advice of asking for a sponsor. This is something Cake would probably be happy to do, and they aren't going to take over your entire meeting 17:42:39 we have never done anything like that but... I guess I will raise it with the rest of the admins 17:42:44 I can check if Mastering Monero can sponsor it with essentially 0 strings attached 17:43:01 ok. 17:43:28 That would be a neat sponsor 17:43:38 I was thinking cake or xmr.to, didn't even think of MM 17:44:30 300euro is no big deal, I could do that if no one else steps up. but again, since my company Symas donates my time to the Monero project, we would expect some credit / Symas logos being visible. 17:44:54 Thanks hyc 17:45:08 Monero: The Corporate Coin ^TM 17:45:24 (kidding) 17:45:32 :) 17:45:37 don't forget the Monero Enterprise Alliance!! 17:46:21 can someone elaborate a bit more on Mastering Monero ? 17:46:39 Justin ? 17:47:15 Monisgr: it's a free resource on Monero available here: https://masteringmonero.com/ 17:47:27 You can buy print editions but the content is the same as online 17:47:36 https://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Monero-future-private-transactions-ebook/dp/B07QW35KZN/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=mastering+monero&qid=1582825639&sr=8-1 17:47:41 do you think they would be eager to sponsor our meet up and educate us as well ? 17:47:54 (Thanks , I was just making sure you are referring to the book) 17:48:02 I'm on the board of the company that publishes it, so I passed the message along 17:49:11 Thanks Justin 17:49:18 yeah np 17:49:27 I think for the reasonable request you will have a few options 17:49:33 awesome 17:50:00 The community here generally vouches for symas, cake, and xmr.to as well 17:50:37 I love the mastering monero idea 17:55:25 Maybe tell everyone to read it before the meetup and make it a book club? 17:55:51 that d be nice :) 17:56:20 Ooo nice idea 17:59:03 There's a meetup in Atlanta that does that 17:59:17 Maybe a paperback copy as a prize for something 17:59:32 A raffle to fund your future meetups 17:59:36 The CCS doesn't feel like the right place for this kind of thing, but corporate sponsors for educational content does imo 18:00:08 Mastering Monero would be even better, since it's more community than company 18:00:10 Thing is... there are a lot of communities... with the same need to do a Monero meet up like we do 18:00:11 CCS could work but I think there are more active sponsorships going around now 18:00:21 exaclty needmoney90[m] 18:00:37 We want to have the event in May by the way 18:01:02 2nd of May 18:03:07 Thanks guys. I got all I need here. I will follow up on this. Appreciate it . 19:23:02 sgp_ ooooh sponsorships 19:26:17 Why pushing for contacting a sponsor? i think the CCS is the perfect place for requests like monisgr's. No commercial entities involved, simply a community sponsoring community stuff 19:26:56 ErCiccione[m]: glad someone said it 19:27:41 in an ideal world maybe, but we need a strong ecosystem of people willing to sponsor things too 19:29:20 I really don't think would be a big deal for the community to contribute funding a proposal in those terms. It's a small amount and sounds like a perfect fit for the CCS. Sounds more weird to me to redirect them to sponsors 19:29:35 Sponsors can still donate through the CCS medium, as far as I understand it. 19:29:52 They could even signal they did so, if required 19:33:35 fwiw I would still also support a CCS for this, but I think asking to see if sponsors were contacted is an important question before moving the CCS 19:34:35 for example, my university had a huge grants program for student groups, and they asked the groups about possible alternative sources of funding in the first stages of the grant application 19:38:13 Right but the model is different. In your explanation it's a top-down funding model, asking groups if they have access/made attemps to any other other top-down sources. In this instance a bottom-up model (the CCS) is asking if a group has tried the alternate top-down approach first. 19:38:54 I'm not sure i agree with that sgp_. Before contacting a sponsor, for such small amounts, i would prefer people to use the CCS. That would guarantee a cerain neutrality in the conversation. A sponsor might require that a certain subject is discussed, or in any case, can make requests, which is not the same for a community funded meetup. 19:39:24 s/is not the same/it's not the case 19:39:25 ErCiccione[m] meant to say: I'm not sure i agree with that sgp_. Before contacting a sponsor, for such small amounts, i would prefer people to use the CCS. That would guarantee a cerain neutrality in the conversation. A sponsor might require that a certain subject is discussed, or in any case, can make requests, which it's not the case for a community funded meetup. 19:39:52 fwiw the case was extremely similar where student groups typically held meetings 19:40:21 But it's the source of funds that is different. 19:40:36 Which is what the whole ideology of the debate is about. 19:41:05 I don't see it as a major ideology debate, which is perhaps the main area we differ 19:41:21 I can see your perspective with ideology first 19:41:58 Like, if the student group was told not to fundraise by a charity student fundraising drive, and instead seek sponsorship from large (often corporate) entities, would that seem fair? 19:43:08 midipoet: I don't see it as anti-charity; the CCS isn't the only option 19:43:51 it's worth noting I'm generally in-between several people's ideas in how to view the CCS 19:55:58 Maybe charity was the wrong word to use. Campus fundraising drive is perhaps more adequate. Either way, it doesn't seem fair to restrict (or not advise) that option in this matter. 21:18:13 I want to shed light on something rehrar and I have been talking about for some time 21:18:39 We all know r/MoneroSupport exists and it has allowed many people to ask questions and have them answered by Monero fanatic volunteers (thank you) 21:18:55 BUT.... there's another opportunity to provide support 21:19:27 it turns out, there's a great open-source chat/ticket software: https://www.chatwoot.com/ 21:20:07 we wanted to originally have a chat feature for the Malware Response Workgroup. This eventually turned into an idea to have a live chat support option on the getmonero.org website 21:20:34 This seems riskier than something public and moderated 21:20:35 so it's not up yet, but expect some calls for volunteers soon for people to volunteer to answer questions there 21:21:00 sarang: risk of malicious contributors? 21:21:05 Yeah 21:21:22 With the public moderated forum, it's at least possible to see that and remove if needed 21:21:23 definitely an important concern, which is why we will need warnings for users not to submit info and the like 21:21:31 With direct 1-on-1 support, you lose that, no? 21:21:52 After all, what if someone says "oh, just run sudo rm etc." 21:21:57 there's still mod oversight I believe (it's meant for companies managing support accounts/employees) 21:22:03 that's not giving out a password or key, but would ruin your day 21:22:41 we definitely will only allow "trusted" people on the platform 21:23:08 those vetting processes are up for discussion 21:25:38 sarang: can you outline your main concerns? 21:25:48 obvious ones are someone asking for private keys 21:26:56 I don't have anything specific, just musing about the change from more public moderated platforms (where viewers can spot bad actors and flag or provide warnings) to more direct platforms (where there seems to be much less oversight) 21:27:51 Most people presumably know not to reveal private data on a very public forum, but having a 1-on-1 support chat probably changes the mentality 21:28:55 ideally there would be a banner with something like "this is a public chat with volunteer support. Do not submit sensitive information" 21:29:06 even if it's not completely public they will get the idea 21:29:43 hmm ok 21:40:06 this is all open for discussion, which is why I posted this here 21:49:17 I share sarang's concerns and i don't think we have shortage of support platforms: multple subreddits, multiple chats relayed on multiple platforms (at least 3 relays but some chats are relayed to more platforms), telegram, stack exchange, even social media like twitter. I sometimes even help people by email. A ticket system would create more problems than solutions and it's not really needed IMHO. 21:50:44 If it's deemed safe enough, it could be interesting to test it out and see how often it's used 21:55:48 What are we expecting people who need support to do now? Open an account on Reddit/StackExchange/etc and create a post 21:56:12 plus they need to find these support systems in the firstplace 21:56:32 With chatwoot, we can provide support through the website, @monero Twitter DMs, and more 21:57:57 we can eventually make bots that auto-reply to solve common issues 22:01:07 There are already multiple chatrooms that don't require registration. You can join a frenode room literally with a click. I think a ticket system gives the wrong feeling and i don't like the idea of "trusted individuals" giving support. 22:02:04 Are there even volunteers for this? 22:03:52 ErCiccione[m]: I personally find public chat rooms more intimidating than a 1 on 1 22:04:02 FWIW I have learned alot by observing other people asking questions and the answers they are giving 22:04:37 plus it will also allow us to quantify what issues people are having 22:04:43 sgp_: Maybe, but definitely safer. And if you say something wrong somebody can correct you 22:05:12 I want to make sure that the chat support system has similar oversight by knowledgeable people 22:07:35 I know it's not perfect, but I don't think a public chat is perfect either (people offline, randos giving advice in the interim, etc) 22:09:04 So you also need to make sure these people stay knowledgeable and aware of updates. WHo is going to check that they are as informed as they were 6 motnhs ago? This is an open community aterall, people can leave or stop following everytime. What if people keep giving suggestions unaware that things changed? 22:09:37 i don't know, i see a lot of issues and i really don't like the combo private chat + trusted members 22:09:48 I'm guilty of giving incorrect advice all the time 22:10:35 luckily companies have the same issues and have ways to try to handle them. this isn't only a Monero problem 22:11:40 I'm optimistic that some more formal process would help us put together better documentation for support, especially if we know what issues people keep having 22:11:54 I'm aware that may not happen 22:12:16 pointing people to uninformed support volunteers isn't a great outcome 22:18:15 We are not a company, we cannot use the same processes they use to give support. And trying to mimic that in a complete different situation, like ours, can ave disastrous effects. I prefer 'support volunteers' in public, which if wrong can be corrected anytime and the community can learn from each other. Also, who would take such responsability? I mean, if you give a wrong advice and somebody get pissed, you 22:18:15 definitely give the feeling of being some "official" support (especially if the system would work on getmonero, thing that i'm even strongly against) you can totally expect a law suit. And then i want to see to explain that you are just a volunteer giving support... on a ticket system.. on the "offiial" 22:18:21 "official website" 22:19:01 As i said, i see so many drawbacks that i really think would be a bad idea. That's my opinion 22:48:03 I'm not at all concerned about threats of lawsuits 22:50:09 Well, there would be some question of liability if someone was pointed to the official support ticketing system, on the official website, but then got the wrong help. 22:51:33 We are only a step away from having an official support manual being written for the volunteers then as well. 22:52:05 However, I suppose Reddit/Stack exchange may be viewed similarly. 22:58:29 I hear your legal concerns, but I respectfully don't believe they are significant. Monero's optics of a decentralized community are stronger than anything else I've seen, except maybe Bitcoin 22:58:50 The only concern I could see is if there was gross negligence and the service effectively was there to just steal seeds 22:59:46 But even that is very different than a single user being a bad actor 23:14:28 We can create a terms of service and privacy policy if people are paranoid