anyone know if they have plans for cake wallet in fdroid?

sgp_ selsta ErCiccione[m]: I removed the offending topic

Thanks. Let’s see how usrn reacts.

it seems there is no evidence in the mod log and no record of who even created the chatroom. it also seems that only mods can create chatrooms

(sorry, I never used this feature before)

I'm tempted to shut down the chat woom completely

since a) there's noone using it, b) noone needs yet another chatroom and c) can't mod it with 1,5 active mods.

I talked to him and he set the description.

.hmm

He was also angry that I didn’t find it funny :P

And complained about PC culture.

But +1 for disabling the chat.

I mean, honestly, I don't know enough about NS history to find it as shocking as you guys do, either

also not sure how -pools plays into the whole drama

but it's 7:30 am and I'm pre-coffee, so...

I mean it’s not super shocking, it’s a joke that you can find funny or not but IMO has no place for in the subreddit description.

agreed

just like \x using swastikka as "throwing stars" in -pools

speaking of -pools... i agree with snipa. there's only very few problematic entities on there. the rest is always helpful

one of them comes in via a bridge. the other one got banned on multiple occasions. he also seems to help organizing monerokon (at least he's advocating for it), which seems to be totally ok?

bbl - gotta shower and go to work

As was pointed out already: if those few entitities don't get moderated, the moderation is accomplice of the low level (at best) of that chat. That's why there is need of better moderation.

ErCiccione[m]: mornin'

ErCiccione[m] | i just said it in pools and people are just playing stupid. This is not ok and i'm sick of the bullshit that -pools pull out from time to time. Even worse that people are just reacting with bullshit like "grab the popcorn" "<\​x> yeah i googled it all i see is gates"

I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that anyone in -pools is responsible for that topic on the reddit chat

What make you think that i consider anyone in -pools responsible for that reddit chat?

because of the "i'm sick of the bullshit that -pools pull out from time to time" part

I may be misinterpreting

My point was that after pointing out the problem in that chat, what i got was only jokes and accusations of not having sense of humor. This from at least 4 people present in the chat in that moment. It's clear that many here consider -pools like rubbish and avoid it, when it's one of the places where we point to when people need support.

ErCiccione[m] | Take down that shit immediately and spare me the bullshit

If respected members of the community started to avoid sending people there for support, means that they don't consider it a welcoming place. So what is it there for?

also reads like you hold -pools responsible

anyway - I went to bed early yesterday, otherwise I'd have immediately removed it

but I think we shouldn't mix -pools and /r/moneromining

it's two seperate communities

I understand how that could have sounded. I wrote it because on /r/moneromining is limked from the subreddit as the "official" chat on freenode, so i assumed reddit's mods where there too.

I agree that -pools has a very special dynamic.

but if we start enforcing moderation on everything that might upset someone, it'll be dead in no time

it's delicate

Imo better dead than a 4chan-like dumpster with monero's name on it

M5M400: "special" is not an understatement. A weird mix of people helping out as good as they can - and some that would sell their own grandmother to make a buck...

Inge-: yes. and a couple of people who like to provoke by celebrating their definition of "freedom of speech"

I think that couple is the only problem when it comes to being the "official" sub

and I do tend to agree with that

s/sub/ircchan

thx bux

hmmm

ok, this just got interesting

lol he told me the same yesterday

he appears to be butthurt

Guys we were all wrong. He has jewish heritage so everything is cool now. Damn me and my non-existent sense of humor.

Ah, mafia is a great thing. It's ok to say it because i'm italian.

sgp_: needmonero90: do we want to reopen the discussion about moving to a different mining subreddit? I'm still not in favor, but I feel a discussion is in order

does anyone even know usrn?

m5m400: I think a moderator who makes dictatorial decisions is a liability.

He refuses to take other mods opinions into account, let alone the community

aka he's the exact wrong person for the position imo

Unless you think his actions, now multiple times, are justified

This has moved from a single event to a pattern of events

do you seriously not see the pattern?

Or, do you think that its harmless?

I realize that our 'standards' of moderation have been loose at best, but his behavior does not strike me as fitting any sort of standard I can think up

needmonero90: I do see the pattern, hence why I feel the need to discuss

especially since usrn is getting more active in moderation the past few weeks. and one of my core arguments in previous discussions was "he's not around much anyway"

The guy makes jokes about concentration camps, refuses to take it down, doesn't listen to the other mods and throw insults to whomever disagree. I think "he is not around" is the least of the problems of that subreddit.

i think "make jokes about concentration camps" is not the correct way to see it. It's alt right (= nazi) "humor"

So, I'm hesitant to have knee-jerk reactions to people with different belief sets that may or may not resemble belief sets that are commonly demonized (rightly or not). I want to stress that it's not what he's saying that bothers me, or is my reason for displeasure for his actions. It's how he's saying it, and the implications that has about his moderation style, which I really dislike.

If he walked back the action, or sought further consensus for leaving it in place, that would be different

(though I doubt any sort of consensus would be formed to leaving it up, and he would be unable to convince others that there is consensus)

needmonero90: agreed.

ErCiccione[m]: out of curiosity, where are you from?

Italy

lol, could have guessed that from the handle, I guess

:P

i wanted to know if you find that video also alt-right naziish: youtube.com/watch?v=wGPGSyCreJA

because it reeks of similar wordplays

and is totally harmless

I guess my point is that humor varies

Let's not turn this in a "people gets easily offended" kind of situation. I deal with germans a lot and hitler jokes come out all the time. This is about not letting normalization of "alt-right" memes pass without saying noticed. I think these are times where authoritarism is on the ris,

and it's becoming a clear and defined strategy to use the "it's just a joke" kind of excuse, because if you don't agree with it, you are just not getting the joke, which is very convenient

let's focus on usrn responses then. I don't like them.

That's the main problem. If he would have just apologized and accepted to take it down we wouldn't have the discussion about moving away from the subreddit. The issue is that he doubled down.

Yeah, let's just ban anybody with the wrongthink opinions.

<ErCiccione[m] "Let's not turn this in a "people"> So to stop authoritarianism you propose to tell people what they can and can't say, and you say this unironically?

M5M400: I don't understand the video so I can not say

mumuks: You are manipulating my words. We are speaking about public Monero rooms/subreddits here, the single can say whatever they want to and take responsability for their words.

"whatever they want", without "to"

ErCiccione (@erciccione_:matrix.org): still, it is the attitude and the alt right boogie man

Anyone who I've met who talks about alt-right like it is something real is an authoritarian

seems like stereotypical drama

you can't just ignore someone?

seems like drama. period.

cant be getting caught up on nonsense

I do get how this is not acceptable to be coming from the owner of the "official" monero mining sub

that's the core problem

azy: "We are speaking about public Monero rooms/subreddits here, the single can say whatever they want to and take responsability for their words.". The ignore button resolves the problem for you, but leave the situation as it is for the next person.

yeah thats how it's worked since language began

theres annoying people everywhere

so why do we even have moderators if we should let people free to do and say whatever they want?

we had a conversatio about what is a welcoming community few days ago fwiw

separate private communities >, competition between (groups of) dictators, else you get this anarchism stuff where theres no real answer so just endless bickering

isnt there an offtopic rule or something? talk about mining or delete

that won't work for chat topics

I feel a meltdown is about to happen

M5M400: the problem started when you decided to open the reddit chat

I decided to open the reddit chat?

just block it in your browser and never worry about it :D

he brings up a good point, that's literally how bullying works. someone shows themselves to be ~overly sensitive and people poke poke poke

like if you can't see the problem, it doesn't exist? that's a very brexit thing to say

is this all it takes to rile people up?

burying your head in the sand is a fine solution to any problem

azy: Is a nazi phrase in the subreddit description fine in your opinion?

"one gy feeling offended". Seriously M5M400? Not cool at all. That PR was opened after a discussion with the community and approval by a core team member.

selsta, seems like an overly simplistic question. if someone sieg heils, i would just ignore them

if it were my subreddit, i would just delete anything offtopic

This isn’t about a post, this is the admin insisting on having a nazi phrase in the subreddit sidebar.

ErCiccione[m]: didn't know that. also, I wrote "offended enough to open a PR". didn't mean you're the only one offended by the line. should be clear from context

i think he's gotten rid of it, or at least i can't find it

I deleted it the chat topic.

azy: " if someone sieg heils, i would just ignore them" do you understand that ignoring the problem doesn't make it magically disappear right?

its not a problem, it's just someone saying something

Right...

azy just follows Postel's law :*

ErCiccione[m]: can I read up on the discussion somewhere?

relative to other problems, this is not even a 1/10

M5M400: what discussions? the conversations happened mostly here and on -pools

it's those gosh darn miners. if we switched to PoS we wouldn't have issues like this

i like postel's law, i just looked that up

azy: if you don't consider a big problem having the admin of a major Monero subreddit use a nazi slogan as description of a chat and refuse to take it down, there isn't really much to discuss.

how long was the nazi slogan in the chat description for?

and how many people were convinced monero is a nazi coin because of it

don't you put up with stupid annoying people every single day? seems like theres no end of things to get mad over, so dont make waves over tiny/non issues. and if you do you'll likely get trolled

asymptotically: there's no log when it was set or who set it

it's pretty badly supported in mod tools

why is the issue it's nazi? rather than offtopic?

azy: because it was the TOPIC of the chat, not some CONTENT in the chat

good lord, not the topic??

how can a topic be offtopic

and it was set by the subs owner. so I can take the topic down, but not remove him as moderator. he on the other hand could wreak havoc, remove all mods and basically stomp the sub in the ground

which, admittedly, is a problem.

one that has been already discussed mostly with sgp_, needmonero90, both of which were in favor of moving to a new sub and let this one die (like needmonero90 did with /r/moneromarkets back in the days). I was opposed to the idea, arguing we'd throw back community building big time.

seeing how usrn behaves in a public chat now post this incident kinda makes me reconsider.

For clarity, the issue is that it is visible to every visitors of the subreddit: imgur.com/a/2TpaPCb

btw I was offended too

I'd report it to reddit admins today if it was still there

sech1 it is still there for me

hmm

it's back

It wasn't there in the morning. All right, time to report it.

Ah yes, because M5M400 removed it, and usrn put it back

nothing there for me via tor, maybe you need to be logged in

kinda funny, but inappropriate, it's definitely out of place there

seriously?

Reported to reddit admins as abusive/offensive content

I'm not sure if they'll ever react but more reports can make it work

seriously. he added it back

what a fucking moron

Link for everyone to report: reddit.com/report

Tell The Teacher

I guess I have to step down as mod

if you step down as mod i'll shave the sides of my moustache

can't the reddit police de-mod him and give you founder powers?

That's not how reddit works unfortunately.

M5M400: Monerominer exists, if we want to go that route

and /r/MoneroPools

I would like to stress, again, that the whole nazi alt right thing is a distraction. While it makes it easier to make an emotional argument, I would have just as much issue if he put cute cat pictures in the sidebar and refused to take the opinions of the community and other mods into account

a distraction?

It's not the heart of why this conversation is happening

It's his refusal to come to any sort of consensus that is

ohhhh sorry, i'm still half asleep. i understand now

I really would prefer the conversation change from 'omg nazis' to 'this guy is not being a good steward'

This is pattern behavior, and it's not just about the alt right fearmongering (which I think is getting to the point of chilled speech, and I'm not very happy with the state of censorship globally atm, but that's a conversation for another time)

needmonero90: you can have this now

"I really would prefer the conversation change from 'omg nazis' to 'this guy is not being a good steward' "

Hm?

OsrsNeedsF2P: hi, are you around?

What's next, m5m?

violent revolution

needmonero90: I'd say a meta thread on r/moneromining?

though that's gonna be a petridish for fireicesque commentry

maybe lure him in here for a discussion?

Start with modmail probably

Escalate to community if there's clearly no consensus

modmail has super limited exposure though

we'll see

jtgrassie: can you read up on todays earlier drama in here and then jump over to /r/moneromining modmail and weigh in the discussion?

I did not stumble over it

fireice did

ErCiccione[m] mentioned it here and I asked if he can remove it

selsta: you posted first in that chat about it. my bad. how did fireice reach out?

twitter

does he still have his excellent twitter banner image?

yes

needmonero90: I refuse to call the fact he posted racist crap as a "distraction." Having an inconsiderate mod is likely enough to move on, but it's definitely another factor

can't find the tweet selsta

nevermind

I am a little annoyed at how people quickly pushed back at ErCiccione[m] for their comments

what's the obsession with howard and nasa?

pragmatism is one thing, but calling their statements an overreaction and focusing so much on creating a set of fine lines instead of focusing on the problem is really frustrating for me to watch

asymptotically: devide, discredit and conquer?

it sounds like we all agree both the subreddit and -pools need work. no need to over-complicate things and create the confusing image of tolerating a load of crap. this over-pragmatism only benefits the bad actors who post racist stuff

I'm glad that people are considerate of their actions, but over-considering whether racist content should be removed is not necessary and only benefits these idiots

seems like he won't be swayed

hardly anyone thinks they're a nazi, but their opinions are offensive regardless

we don't need someone who is using the subreddit as their personal sandox to test the "snowflakes" to moderate it

agreed

we have -pools for that :P

ugh, not now

relax. just messing with you

I know, just in bad taste when I'm already frustrated

slowflake :D

lol

I can reach out to a contact I have at Reddit, so save all the evidence you have. But we should expect to need to move over

Hey, I've getmonero.dev domain . Do you have any ideas for it? reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/ekzltd/ideas_for_getmonerodev

SerHack: Tutorials on how to get started developing Monero applications? There was quite a good interactive website that included some software development.

Thanks for the suggestion msvb-mob

sgp_: Do you remember the website I'm thinking of, it was interactive and had some source code sections.

SerHack: I think sgp_ knows about the site and you will like it a lot. We just need to wait for him.

umm, I don't know what you're talking about

Oops, I thought you made or advertised a website that helped answer questions about Monero.

I saw the message here in IRC about two months ago, and when I visited the site it was very well made. Colorfull and full of CSS probably JS as well.

stackexchange?

asymptotically: It was clearly a custom site made by one of us, not stackexchange.

the only other site with a big list of questions that i can think of is monero.how

Not that either, sorry.

hmmm

I'll try to search my notes and logs and maybe will find it. Sorry for the distraction SerHack.

maybe moneroexamples had a website at one point

sgp_: I just suggested to him if he can't lead by example, it might be time to step down. this might escalate quickly

M5M400: it's past that point as far as I'm concerned

msvb-mob: no problem, there're no distraction for me if it's related to Monero

SerHack: I think the site I was thinking of is masteringmonero.com/bitcoin.html (do you see the animated console text?)

But I like binaryFate's suggestion even more

msvb-mob: I have developed that page haha :D

sgp_: jetting over for monerokon this year?

M5M400: good chance but not 100%

you should. we could have a beer and tell stories about the good ol' days where we were mods on /r/moneromining

haha

good old days when usrn was away

what a rebel

so what do we make of this?

Maybe remove that chat alltogether?

that won't solve the underlying problem

still a good idea though

usrn needs to go. he sidestepped your call to resign

I doubt the "master of the universe" has any stake in whether I resign or not

besides, I only said I'd have to resign in this chan, not in a discussion with him

call for him to resign

tell him the options are for him to have a subreddit that no one else supports and for it to effectively die, or for him to resign and take his anti-snowflake nonsense elsewhere

on another note, we REALLY need to funnel the next set of contributors to work on some website documentation. There's a lot of stuff to do and it's comparatively easy

sgp_: i'm working on some of that stuff, but would be really helpful to have somebody review the more technical docs. Also, some updates to the dev guides were merged recently

nice, I just see a lot of "nice to haves" are open issues still ErCiccione[m]

something a newcomer could contribute with for <1 hr/week

those kind of issues are usually labelled "needs help" and "easy"

i will open some more in the next days

"help needed" not "needs help"

not many "easy" issues now that i check

ErCiccione[m]: who runs repo.getmonero.org? i think the outgoing emails are borked

What's the issue asymptotically? depending by the problem can be mooo, pony or pigeons

i'm not getting my password reset email :( - have tried a few times over the past few weeks

alright, thanks for the heads up! moneromooo pigeons ^

and sorry, i thought you ran the gitlab instance for some reason :x

i'm just a humble servant :)

mods should be arbiters of the content based upon the goals of the subreddit/people and not seek to influence in any way

<rehrar> Woof

🐶 or 🐕

?

I refer to that as being a steward

Vs a dictator

I made this an open source marketplace app - I have it running on Monero stagenet at the moment. I'm hoping I can get some community feedback and suggestions so that I can improve things and prepare it for mainnet/production. Details are here: reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/el9ns4/xmr_auctions

needmonero90: agreed

I've unbanned rottensox after about a day, but they will need to watch their behavior

asymptotically! The person I was looking for!

Yeah I'm always around on IRC now, was just at work